Orog question

[Ricochet]

In a recent game, we were making an Orog character for my girlfriend.

But I don't quite understand the CR increase rules.

Basically, the race has a +2 CR modifier. So she was making a third level character, she took one level in ranger.

Here comes the problems:

1) Hit points. Does she have 1d8 hit points or does she get the "+2" as hit dice also, starting with 3d8? (we ruled that she did, otherwise she would die instantly in the game)

2) Feats. Does this character start the game with 2 feats (for being a total of three levels character), or only 1 for her Ranger "first level"?

 

[Grazzt]

In a recent game, we were making an Orog character for my girlfriend.

But I don't quite understand the CR increase rules.

Basically, the race has a +2 CR modifier. So she was making a third level character, she took one level in ranger.

Here comes the problems:

1) Hit points. Does she have 1d8 hit points or does she get the "+2" as hit dice also, starting with 3d8? (we ruled that she did, otherwise she would die instantly in the game)

Not sure which version of the orog you are using (Did WotC do it somewhere? The version in Tome of Horrors has 3d8 HD and is LA +2). Anyway, if the monster has 1 HD, you replace it with class levels, just like any other 1 HD race (elf, dwarf, half-orc, gnome, halfling, etc.).

The +2 CR modifier has nothing to do with HD. I'm not quite sure if you are talking about CR or EL (or LA) here, but either way, neither one has to do with starting HD.

2) Feats. Does this character start the game with 2 feats (for being a total of three levels character), or only 1 for her Ranger "first level"?

Yes. For example, the orog in Tome of Horrors (as I did it) has 3 HD. Under 3.5 rules, it begins the game with two feats (just like any other 3 HD or 3rd-level character). Think of its HD as "monster class levels."

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I'm sure he means the Orog (Deep Orc) from Races of Faerûn (it's weird, but they're no longer orc/ogre crossbreeds, at least it isn't mentioned. One of the few weird things in RoF).

The Orog has no racial hit dice.

This is how races with a level adjustment work:

For starting money, the amount of XP the character gets and the amount of XP the character needs to level-up, you use the effective character level (ECL). The Orog Ranger 1 has an ECL of 3, so he gets starting money as a 3rd-level character, the starting XP of a 3rd level character (which is 3000xp, unless they start with something else IYC) and needs another 3000xp for 6000xp to advance to Ranger 2, which makes him ECL 4.

For everything else, you use the class level (or accumulated class levels), ignoring the level adjustment. The Orog Ranger has 1 HD, has the class features of a 1st-level character and gets feats and ability increases as a 1st-level character (1 feat and no ability increase).

So the others get their 2nd feat for being 3rd level while he doesn't. He has to wait until he has 3 class levels (ranger 3 or ranger2/fighter 1 or something), which makes him ECL 5. When they level-up next, the others can increase one ability score, but he cannot, he has to wait till he has 4 class levels and is ECL 6 (on this point the others will get another feat). Also, if this ECL 6 party will face a wizard casting a sleep spell, the others will be immune (for they have 6hd), but he can be targeted by sleep, for he's got only 4hd.

An advice at this point: The level adjustment should not be more than half of your total ECL. In this case, he's ECL 3 but two of these effective levels won't give him a HD. He will be to frail to survive that. Especially if the player is new

Now what you can do to fix that is either to disallow the race (it is for the player's own good. the race might be nice, but dying in the first combat isn't), or create a special advancement using a variant of the monster class rules in Savage Species, where the racial traits are awarded over the first couple of levels instead all at once, and the level adjustment won't kick in all at once. An example for the Orog follows:

Starting Package:
* + 2 Strength, - 2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom
* Medium-size
* Land speed 30'
* Darkvision 60'
* Proficient with greatsword and throwing axe
* +2 racial bonus on Craft (armorsmithing) and Craft (weaponsmithing) checks.
* Light Blindness (Ex).
* Orc Blood
* Automatic Languages: Orc, Undercommon (Bonus Languages as normal)
* Favored Class: Fighter.

Progression:
1st level: Class level, Starting Package
2nd level: Class level, Darkvision 120'
3rd level: NO class level, Str +2, Fire resistance 5
4th level: Class level, Cold resistance 5
5th level: NO class level, Str +2, Cha +2.
6th+: as normal.

This will make her more surviveable without giving out to much at first.

The list probably isn't perfect and needs a little tweaking, but you get the Idea.

 

[Ricochet]

Wow, I didn't know it was that complicated.. Thanks for the replys.

Man, it really sucks to play a Minotaur or Ogre then, they seem awfully weak compared to ANY class of the same CL. The system as is makes it really tough making "fantastic race" characters, since they all pretty much stink up the place for at least a few levels.

I don't think we want to use all those levels, as the character is not broken as is (with CL = HD) and feats, but I guess I still have a lot to learn..

Although I think we will look into that list you made Kae, it looks pretty solid!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Creatures with high level adjustents aren't really made for low-level play. Later, they may well be worth it, but at first, you'll be far to frail to survive to become higher-level. As I said, the LA <= total ECL/2 thumb rule is handy to determine if the race is appropriate. Or, you use an advancement as I have made up there.

 

[Kershek]

Ok, so how would you create an orog as a monster? Give him two fighter levels to make him a CR 4 with only two piddly hit dice to protect him? That hardly seems right. After all, using 3.0 rules, a CR 2 Ogre has 4 hit dice, and 6 hit dice if you give him two levels of barbarian. A much better challenge for a CR 4 monster.

 

[Darkness]

Ok, so how would you create an orog as a monster? Give him two fighter levels to make him a CR 4 with only two piddly hit dice to protect him? That hardly seems right. After all, using 3.0 rules, a CR 2 Ogre has 4 hit dice, and 6 hit dice if you give him two levels of barbarian. A much better challenge for a CR 4 monster.

A 2e orog had 3 HD, FWIW. *shrug* Doesn't seem like a CR 5 to me, though...

edit - BTW, 3.5 ogres are CR 3.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Ok, so how would you create an orog as a monster? Give him two fighter levels to make him a CR 4 with only two piddly hit dice to protect him? That hardly seems right. After all, using 3.0 rules, a CR 2 Ogre has 4 hit dice, and 6 hit dice if you give him two levels of barbarian. A much better challenge for a CR 4 monster.

The RoF Orog has a Level Adjustment of +2, not a CR modifier of +2. They don't mention the CR modifier, but it should be +1, not +2)

 

[Kershek]

I couldn't see a CR listed, so I went with the level adjustment. Where in RoF does it say an orog is a CR 1?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It doesn't say that. It's my guess. (CR adjustments are usually lower than level adjustments, and this one shouldn't be an exception).