OSR OSR Gripes

GameOgre

Adventurer
Let me clarify exactly why I find the OSR/OSRIC etc. movement so confusing.

1) It's a movement to recreate a specific set of rules yet the fans of the movement when discussing why they are fond of the game almost never reference actual rules, but instead reference ideas about play, encounter design, campaign design, and so forth that are not aspects of the rules - for example challenge, skillful play, randomness, using propositions highly specific to and interactive with the fiction, etc. And I'm on board with most of that but don't understand why you'd need those rules to do it. My 3e campaign, the players unwisely interacted with some radioactive ooze, and now one player has a talon for a hand and other player's hippogriff steeds has a mutated foot with an alien mouth on it. I didn't and don't need 1e rules to have 1e feel. It feels like the same effect could be achieved by producing supplements for modern editions on old school play style, encounter design, campaign design and so forth.

2) Some of the most successful and prominent OSR games don't actually have that 1e feel either. Instead, they are more like what TSR games might have felt like if instead of Tracy Hickman advocating for the comic book code in future TSR products, Anton LaVey had been an employee and recommended doubling down on the occult scare for the publicity. Now I get there are people who hear something like that and go 'cewwwl', but I don't see why you need a 1e rule set for that either. Why is grimdark such a thing in the OSR community?

3) To the extent that OSR champions will talk about rules at all and advocate for rules, typically what you'll hear from them is that what they like about the rules is that they don't use them. That is to say they'll say that the great thing about the old rules is that there are no rules and they can just make things up. And ok, that may be a preference thing, but at the same time it's not a rules thing either. No rules set is comprehensive and regardless of which edition you are playing, if you are doing your job as a DM and if the players are doing theirs, then you'll find yourself outside the rules needing to make rulings. In my 3e game I found myself running a combat where the players were racing mounts down a city street next to a runaway carriage that was being attacked by wights, where like an old western movie I had heroes jumping off horses to get on the carriage and try to stop it. This is not a situation which is explicitly covered by the rules as written in 3e or 1e, and so regardless of which system I was using there would have been a lot of rulings involved. However, I certainly know which system has more support for this sort of free form play, and it's not 1e AD&D, and that is so obviously true that I really wonder whether the old school fans of free form play do really in fact have as game as free form as my 3e based game, or whether it's more like the play I remember of 30 years ago where we pretty much stayed in our lanes and delved in dungeons. I mean staying in the lanes and delving the dungeons seems to be what the OSR games are selling as a selling point...

As far as actual rules go, there are a few things I miss from the 1e era:

a) XP for g.p.: This is the biggest surprise to me of all because back as a DM in the AD&D era I hated XP for g.p. because of the constraints it put on campaign design. The rules strongly encouraged leveling by getting rich, which meant that the PC's coffers tended to be overflowing or the PC's tended to die from the grind. To me it was like the training rules. I got why they worked that way, but that didn't stop me from tossing them out the window at the first opportunity because they got in the way of a fun story. But, now that they are gone and after some years of reflection I do miss them at times. Or rather, what I really miss is players being excited about finding loot. By and large, players in my game don't care about gold. They care about magic items, but gold because it isn't readily fungible to magic items (unlike some 3e games I presume) isn't something that they care much about. And that feels like a bit of a loss both in realism, game play, and fun.

b) Weapon vs. AC modifiers: The rule that I missed almost immediately in 3e play is one which I doubt any OSR games actually implement and which few tables at the time used. But if it wouldn't make the game more complex than it is, I'd bring it back in a heart beat.

c) Exponential XP progression: Of the things I miss this is the one which I'm most likely to actually incorporate in my rules set in the future. I'm convinced that it is superior to linear XP progression to level having played with both. However, changing the rules so that exponential will work well (especially in absence of the fudge factor of treasure for XP) will be a huge undertaking and so far I haven't attempted it. I miss the way exponential XP supported henchmen, supported starting new characters from 1st level if you wanted to go that route, and the way it created natural demographics if you made assumptions about NPC's gaining XP over time.

But that is literally it. Everything else that I've got now is the same 1e underlying 6 attribute class based chargen with the strong D20 fortune engine, only the chasis that has been built around that classic engine is so much better in every respect to what was built around it back in the day. It's clearer. It's fairer. It's more balanced. It handles difficulty cleanly. It supports more open play better. It's more complete. It supports more diverse character concepts. And perhaps most of all, it's got 10 years of house rules built around it to make it play the way I want it to play.

One of the few AD&D DM's I encountered that I thought I understood was one like me that I had built up a body of house rules and porting away from that and what he was comfortable with he said was too much work. But then, at the time he wasn't part of OSR. He was just a DM that had been running games the same way for decades. Only since then, he's taken up LotFP, and I'm like, "What?!?!? Why? I thought you were completely comfortable with your house rules and couldn't change."

At some level I think I do get it: "How you think about a game and how you prepare to play is at least as important as the rules." And I think for most people they have to have a rules change in order to change how they think about the game and the habits that they bring to the table. And that sort of makes sense that your habits would get attached to a particular context. But then I get in a discussion with OSR people about the rules, and they are all like, "If you don't like the rules, it's because you aren't a capable enough DM/player. Using the old rules requires skill and imagination, you see." and it's all so totally not self-aware.

Every rpg has crap rules. OSR-New Modern...it's all crap. You have to overlook that crap to get at the fun.

Rules do not bring fun to the table. I love OSR games just as much as I love 5E. More some days,less others. Mostly I run a crapload of 5E but my B/X D&D game is awesome as well.

So if you have issues with B/X rules ....so what? I'm sure your right...they suck. So does 5E.

I have two pages of house rules designed to make my 5E game sing just the way I like it and to fix the hot mess that is it's many many issues.

My B/X D&D House rules are only a single small page...does that mean its less broken? Heck no, just there were less rules to fix!

Reading all these posts Celebrim, mostly you come off as a Troll. You bash other people's ideas and game in a almost mocking manner and are very dismissive of others opinions. I'm not sure why you are here after so many pages of aggressive pounding on the OSR. Do you think your opinions or posts are going to change anyone's mind?

People play what they want to play. Frankly I have no idea why anyone would EVER want to play 3.5 D&D. I find it baffling and illogical myself. That doesn't mean I would go into a thread about 3.5 and aggressively demand justifications for the fans of it. I'm sure they love it and would have answers that make sense to them on why it's the best game ever. That's cool! More power to em!
 

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You are absolutely right. Totally forgot about that!

3e, not 5e, codified stat increases as part of progression, both through giving stat increases with level, and by setting out expected wealth/level which, along with make/buy of magic items, gave predictable access to all those stat-boosting items (all of which added to stats rather than replacing them as in the olden days).
 


Celebrim

Legend
The more information the game gives to the players - via rules, skills, etc. - the more it ties his hands and the less he likes it. (This is also part of why we don't game with each other - we have diametrically opposing views on player collaboration at the table and neither of us enjoys the others' preferred style of play. He also likes everyone to start out as a level-0 dirtfarmer and earn their fun through dozens of character deaths before you finally get the right kind of luck to get someone to survive to a level where you have enough hit points to get through a fight, which is a style of play I literally no longer have time for.)

You aren't overturning my stereotype of OSR GM's here. I mean I've already got people up in arms so I'm not going to really delve into this, but there is a school of GMing out there - lets call it the John Wick school - where an RPG is only fun if the players have no agency and as soon as the players start to have some control then its time to ditch the game. I don't really get it, because if you want control no matter how much finite agency the players have, as the GM you always have an infinite well to draw on but I guess it's some sort of mutual high illusionism going on.

I also don't get it because back in the day I had a far worse problem with rules lawyers and table arguments than I do now, and while that might be in large part maturity rather than underlying system, the idea that you are somehow avoiding players challenging your ruling just by playing an old school rules set seems bogus on its face. Take the secret door example. OSR rules explicitly allow characters to find secret doors on a certain roll of the D6, and OSR rules have no inherent concept of the idea of difficulty. My expectation based on having run both is that a player at my 3e table who rolled a search check in the open to find something would have no expectation that they should have found something because they rolled well because they also know that the DC could be quite high. But a player at my 1e table with an elf who rolled a 1 on a d6 would expect to always find the secret door because that's what the rules said should happen, and if they didn't, there would certainly be a table argument. Point is, a rules set however vague will still attract rules lawyers, and indeed in my experience rules lawyers thrive on vague rule sets. A rules lawyer prefers in fact rules open to interpretation because then they have something to argue about.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Every rpg has crap rules. OSR-New Modern...it's all crap. You have to overlook that crap to get at the fun.

I don't agree, and to extent that I do agree it's relative. Some games have more crap rules than others.

Rules do not bring fun to the table.

Ok, I do agree with that, but that seems to in fact support my argument rather than overturn it. If rules don't bring fun to the table, why do we need to faithfully recreate BECMI in not only its good parts (theater of the mind combat rules) or AD&D, but in its warts and problems as well?

I love OSR games just as much as I love 5E. More some days,less others. Mostly I run a crapload of 5E but my B/X D&D game is awesome as well.

So if you have issues with B/X rules ....so what? I'm sure your right...they suck. So does 5E.

I have two pages of house rules designed to make my 5E game sing just the way I like it and to fix the hot mess that is it's many many issues.

My B/X D&D House rules are only a single small page...does that mean its less broken? Heck no, just there were less rules to fix!

All of that makes some sense, but doesn't really answer my question. Also, I never end up with less than about 30 pages of house rules for anything. I have like 600 for 3e D&D and I'd love to have thousands if I really had time to rewrite everything to make it the way I wanted it. That I confess is a quirk and perhaps weakness of mine, but - and yes this is arrogant - I really do believe that in many cases I can write better rules than the original authors (especially since unlike them, I'm not under a deadline to publish). It would be a condemnable attitude except, my players tend to agree with me.

Reading all these posts Celebrim, mostly you come off as a Troll. You bash other people's ideas and game in a almost mocking manner and are very dismissive of others opinions. I'm not sure why you are here after so many pages of aggressive pounding on the OSR. Do you think your opinions or posts are going to change anyone's mind?

Only one person possibly - mine. And I do hear you that I come off as a troll, but I find what comes off as a troll is much like that ice cream example. Many people that think I come off as a troll, are themselves people I think come off as a troll.

People play what they want to play. Frankly I have no idea why anyone would EVER want to play 3.5 D&D. I find it baffling and illogical myself. That doesn't mean I would go into a thread about 3.5 and aggressively demand justifications for the fans of it.

Why not? I'd be perfectly fine with that. I might even commiserate with your frustration. Heck, I've even written rants about how bad 3.5 D&D is (you should know, my rules set is based on the far superior 3.0e *grin*). You talk about how I seem like a troll because in your mind I'm challenging your preferences. But even if that is what I was doing, since they are preferences why should you care? Why is that offensive? And if all rules are crap in your opinion, when I say that a rules set is crap, why does that strike you as trolling?

In my opinion, if your response isn't some form of "Yes, but..." and instead is "You come off as a troll...". Well, you do the math.

For example, I would be perfectly happy (in another thread) to explain why I run 3.X based games despite the fact that it would appear balance between casters and non-casters is so poor, that you really only ought to play casters if you want to have any agency and spotlight. It's a perfectly valid criticism, and I'd be happy to address it without claiming that the person was trolling. Heck, if you even started with the idea that if I ran 3.X it must be because as a player I was biased toward casters and hated non-casters, I'd be even willing to address that charge and I'd only feel you were being rude about it if, after having been given a reasonable explanation you still insisted I was biased in favor of casters. Fair warning, the last time I was in such a discussion, the guy started with the angry charge that I hated non-casters because I ran 3.X, and midway into the discussion began making charges that the way I ran the game was unfair because it made casters pointless. So some people are just going to hate unreasonably. I try not to be that person.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I guess it's some sort of mutual high illusionism going on.
I like to think of Illisionism as being analogous to a magician's "illusions" (tricks) - they're fun to be 'fooled' by and to try to figure out, but once you see the strings, less fun.

And, yes, there is a whole school (not sure if it's /the/ old school, but it's not a young one) or style of D&D that relies on that.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I like to think of Illisionism as being analogous to a magician's "illusions" (tricks) - they're fun to be 'fooled' by and to try to figure out, but once you see the strings, less fun.

And, yes, there is a whole school (not sure if it's /the/ old school, but it's not a young one) or style of D&D that relies on that.

After 35 years of playing, I can sit down at a table and within an hour or two tell if a player is cheating without ever once observing his dice. I just know what normal dice rolls are like and can tell immediately if the players run of luck isn't normal. That player and the other players at the table, even though they are sitting at the table and using the same rules are playing vastly different games.

Likewise, after 35 years of running a game, when I sit down and play as a player, I can tell almost immediately what is happening on the other side of the DM's screen and what thought processes went into the design and play of the game. Again, same rules, yet often vastly different games.

I admit being able to 'see the strings' being pulled and otherwise always being cognizant of the part of play that is a game harms my emersion and hence harms my ability to enjoy the game somewhat, but after this much experience it's sort of inevitable. I have the same problem with plot holes and dungeons that ignore economic sense. Often it's really annoying, and I wish I could go back to being that player that doesn't see everything or that DM that could just make a dungeon that was utter nonsense - right up until I see other players responding to plot holes and nonsensical scenes because they learned from me an expectation that things are coherent and not superficial.

As you said, GM illusionism only works if the players can't see the strings attached to them. It's like playing a game where you throw the game to let that person win. Most people are only going to enjoy that if they don't realize that you threw the game. Or it's like Mass Effect where the game is letting you make choices, and as long as you can imagine that those choices really matter that it's really immersive and compelling, but the more you replay the game and the closer you get to the end the more you realize none of it actually makes a difference. At that point, you really better have some other aesthetic of play you can enjoy, because the carpet has been pulled out from under a big part of why you were playing.

Often times I will ask for advice from other GMs, particularly if it is a system I haven't run much before, and the most frequent advice I get when I question something boils down to "just use a lot of illusionism to make it work anyway". Maybe that works for some groups, but for me that's all card tricks that I can see through and less is much better than more. I might be impressed by your skill at pulling the trick, but I'm going to be impressed even more if you don't need to do so or I can't see the trick.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
You aren't overturning my stereotype of OSR GM's here. I mean I've already got people up in arms so I'm not going to really delve into this, but there is a school of GMing out there - lets call it the John Wick school - where an RPG is only fun if the players have no agency and as soon as the players start to have some control then its time to ditch the game. I don't really get it, because if you want control no matter how much finite agency the players have, as the GM you always have an infinite well to draw on...

“You lot {humans} would rather watch someone suffer untold horrors than watch them enjoy so much as a cool drink if you don’t have two of your own, and yours have cherries in them as well as more ice and little paper umbrellas, and even then most of you would still prefer to take theirs and have three. This is not the behavior of a sentient race.”

-Space Opera, Catherynne Valente
 


Kersus

Explorer
I've played more 1st level adventures than any other kind and I love them.

It may be one of my gripes toward 2e and forward. Everyone is a magical 4 colour superhero.

All the best stories froth gaming table are about your character dying.
 

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