(OT) Help resolve a family fight re: Matrix Reloaded (spoilers)

[apsuman]

Hello all,

Spoiler warning.

I just saw The Matrix Reloaded with my wife. We both loved the movie but had a "spirited discussion" after. I wanted expert answers to my question, and I could think of no place better than here. (If you think this an inappropriate question, I will happily take advie on where to ask same.)

So, here is the question:

When Neo is meeting with the Architect, what were the two choices he gave Neo, and which one did he take? (Be as specific as you can please.)


g!

 

[Chroma]

It boiled down to...

...save the world or save the girl...

Neo picked the girl... even though he "knew" he couldn't save her, but he had that crazy human irrationality called "hope".

Need more details?

Find them here.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

If you check in the Non-RPG forum, there are several spirited discussions going on in there, and I believe someone has posted up, word-for-word, the discussion in question.

 

[Cedric]

This is just my opinion...and even I question it at times.

The Architect gave Neo two choices. Go back to the source, where the main frame can consume Neo, reset the backup Matrix and clear out the Zion Rebels. Then the people chosen by Neo will form the new backup Matrix and those humans who are destined to rebel, will have a place to vent their rebellious tendancies...the backup Matrix.

Or..

He could refuse, in which case the system will crash, Zion and the other humans in the backup Matrix will be destroyed...but at least he'll have a chance to save Trinity...even though (according to the Architect) she'll die anyway.

Arguably, she does die anyway...and also arguably, she's still going to die permanently when Zion falls and the machines crush the backup Matrix.

Without a place for the rebellious members of humankind to vent themselves (the backup Matrix) the whole system crashes. All the humans die. The machines are left with a scant existence.

Why do I believe this?

Because Neo was able to affect the squiddies in the "real world". So I don't think the real world is real at all. I think it's just a second Matrix where they put people who rebel. The programming of the Matrix requires both a backup matrix and a primary matrix to exist.

Also, I believe this because the Architect had pictures of Neo in the "real world". Which should not have existed otherwise.

I think Neo will find a way to upset the balance in both of these worlds and bring the whole system of the machines down...without all of mankind dying.

Cedric

 

[Arken]

My understanding is pretty similar to Cedrics (it would be concerning if it wasn't )

The One (as the focus for all the fluctuations in the programing of the matrix caused by human choice) has to choose to either return to the source where the 'sum' is resolved thus stabilising the matrix and restarting zion at the same time OR he can choose his own humanity by trying to save Trinity in which case the attack on zion goes through anyway and the matrix will crash because the 'problem' of choice is not resolved through assimilating the One.

NOW I differ from Cedric in some areas...(though his thinking is perfectly valid)

Point 1. (off the point a little) the reason i think he is given a choice is because the matrix relies on the 'yes' 'no' of binary. Whilst in theory in a normal movie the machines could have 'tricked' Neo completely by having him enter the door of light leading straight to the source this cannot be the case in the matrix, the problem of choice is one that can only be resolved through the choice of the One.

Point. 2 Whilst the second matrix idea is certainly logically satisfactory because it explains why Neo could 'zap' the squids it isn't very satisfactory in a structural or plot driven sense. I'll therefore throw out an alternative that has a few flaws but can just hang there against the valid idea of the second matrix so well outlined by Cedric.

Zion is real in my opinion, if it wasn't the movies would to some extent be a cyclical nonsense . This is outlined in Note 11 of the transcript above (though I certainly don't say that said transcript is perfect in analysis). I would place the power of Neo in the real world (which I believe to be genuinely real) on the idea of him having internalised 'code'/'machine language' and thus now is able to be part of the machine hivemind. The fact that machines are a hivemind is shown by the movement of squids (for me) especially as shown in the Revolutions trailer or Last Flight of the Osiris.
The fact the Neo could be seen as having internalised the way of thinking embodied in machines I think is shown by the fact he can now 'dream' teh future of the matrix in the real world. I would say this means he can now see the myriad shifting of code inside his head even without being plugged in. By extrapolation if he can 'connect' (in a very vague sense) with the matrix whilst in the real world he could also perhaps 'connect' with machines. The source of this power is unknown it could be from some sort of link with Smith or it could be part of some sort of Gnostic transcedentalism as part of the prophesy of the 'One' being unexpectedly actually true. I would back this up with teh fact Neo says directly the prophesy isn't true. Whenever a character says sweeping statements as certain as that they are later wrong (not very good I know it was only meant in jest ).

 

[Umbran]

When Neo is meeting with the Architect, what were the two choices he gave Neo, and which one did he take? (Be as specific as you can please.)

Just saw it last night myself. It seems to be a variation on the old "Lady or the tiger" scenario.

Neo is given two choices - go back to the Matrix and try to save the girl (which he's told is impossible), or go to back to the Source, and save the human race.

I'm not at all sure Cedric has it right. It seems ot me that the Architect says, "The Matrix is going to crash, Zion is gong to be destroyed. You may go back to the Matrix and save the woman you love and have every human die, or you may go back to the Source, and pick 23 people to survive and start a new human race that will live in the new Matrix." There is no "backup matrix".

 

[Darius101]

No back up matrix was named ....you are correct.

Postulate this he accomplished the impossible by saving the girl. Where do we go from here?
Matrix within a matrix would make sense.
We know smith has a effected and reprogramed an Human outside the original matrix because Bane tries to attack the crew in the proverbial real time world of Zion.
What was smiths original form? Could have been a machine or a computer and therefore that is why Neo can affect the machines in the proverbial real world.

We won't know til the next movie we have only seen the middle of a longer story.
That longer story seems to me to be too close to Tron on crack.

Darius

 

[Aaron2]

Also, I believe this because the Architect had pictures of Neo in the "real world". Which should not have existed otherwise.

When? Where? I saw the movie for a second time and was watching this scene for real world photos. I didn't see any. Have any scans?


Aaron

 

[Angcuru]

Well....considering that the Architech told Neo that Trinity was going to die and that there wasn't a DAMNED THING he could do about it....and he goes ahead and "resurrects" her when her heart stops, the Architech is not perfect and therefore capable of making mistakes. I.E. Neo can make things go boom outside of the Matrix, squiddies gonna croak.

But how about this? By being 'The One' Neo eventually is dellusioned to the point that he actually becomes psychic, being able to do Matrix-Style stuff in the real world, and the Squiddie incident was just a taste of what he can do.

Also, if you stayed to see the trailer for Revolutions, you'd have seen that Smith Develops Neo-Style powers, and that the human he infected and Neo are unconcious lying next to each other on a table in the ending scene of the movie. AND there is a big huge fight scene between Neo and one of the Smiths (probably the original) where NO ONE else is seen. Perhaps Neo is now able to hack into the Matrix without the use of an uplink, and takes on Smith in the Backup Matrix while everyone else think's they're just veggies and fight off the squiddies.

PREDICTION: Neo becomes super-powerful in the real world, and after kicking Smith's ass, he flies to the center of Zion and takes out the Sentinels with his newfound badassness. Then he croaks and Trinity starts to cry bla bla bla, and somehow he's not dead: Original Matrix-Style. Ending hypothesis: The HUMANS are now in control of the Matrix, being able to hack in wirelessly Neo-Style, and use it for this and that, effectively making the human race super-powerfull.....and then Vegeta shows up.

If the Third one pulls a "Matrix within a Matrix" on us, the W. Brothers will be killed by some insane fanboy with a lead pole, Neo-style.

 

[Umbran]

But how about this? By being 'The One' Neo eventually is dellusioned to the point that he actually becomes psychic, being able to do Matrix-Style stuff in the real world, and the Squiddie incident was just a taste of what he can do

I think it's a little bit simpler than that. Neo and Smith shared space for a moment or two at the end of the first movie. So, some of Neo imprints on Smith. But that's a two way street - some of Smith also imprints on Neo. Neo's ability with machines is merely something the like of which Smith could do...