[OT] I have a right to sell my virtual items, damn it!!!

[Hawkshere]

Mythic are money grubbing bastards?

Huh?

For some of you that don't play these games, maybe its hard to tell offhand who the bad guys are here. This is not about corporate shills coming in bustin' someone's chops over intellectual property. This time it's the other way around. This is aggressive profiteers trying to create a new market based on property which does not belong to them.

These freeloaders can whine all they like about how they 'own' their own 'time', but they cannot make any case for the time they've invested creating 'ownership' over data created, stored, and maintained the game company.

Its a fact that demand for desirable characters and gear in these games creates a market of players willing to pay real world money for virtual goods (data). However, the fact that this demand exists creates no rights whatsoever over that data that the owner of that data does not wish to extend.

As a longtime player of these games, I can tell you that 'real' players generally hate these folks. Its one thing to want to sell your account after you've played the game in good fun for years - but these people are actually trying to make a living doing nothing but farming the game for valuables to sell. It perverts the very basis of the game play, and damages the value of the game experience for regular gamers who are just trying to enjoy the game for what it is - a recreation.

If somehow Living Greyhawk players were discovered selling magic items or characters for real cash on ebay, and running a business at it, what would you think? How do you think the RPGA would react? Now I know that's probably not a realistic scenario, but games like DAoC or EQ are big, shared, persistant game worlds, just like Living Greyhawk. So just imagine sitting next to some guy at an RPGA tourney who paid $400 on ebay for that +4 Sword of Munchkinizing his character has. WTF?

 

[Kesh]

Very true, Tsyr, you make an excellent point.... though that still doesn't change the fact that they're money grubbing bastards.

How are they 'money grubbing bastards' when they don't make any money from this? (Unless you're saying they're doing this to make more people actually play the game in order to get the high-level stuff... the horror! )

 

[Grendel]

Is buying, selling, and trading equipment allowed in the game?
do they have shops and merchants.

If so, then a precident has been made supports the barter and trade goods and services within the game.

If they want to disallow selling and trading of items within the game it would have to be a blanket ban. Frankly it is up to the game designers to implement restrictions on gameplay. There is not reason that they didn't not set up a transaction routine that requires specific "in-game" license to make a transaction. They could then limit bartering to specific shop vendors or Players who have applied for and recieved permission to transfer goods. Trading and bartering good is a fully implemented function of the game and is in there by design.

As for the exchange of characters or accounts, I need look no further than my local used games store (electronic botique, hastings), apparently the resale of games (or as it was mentioned the license to install and play the game) is lawful, at least for now.

 

[Squire James]

I'm firmly against the "virtual assets" seller, essentially because he doesn't own the "assets" so they are not his to sell. It is my opinion that he is simply greedy, and could care less about the moral issues of what he's doing. I am almost certain that none the people who sell their "virtual assets" bother to check whether they owned the "assets" or not.

"Hey, the car was in my driveway, so I sold it!"

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Something you must consider...

Would you play in a game where you could pay the DM to get a few extra levels or magic items?

If Mythic wanted to, they could sell premium accounts that have plenty of money and magic items. They do not. Doing so would cause many people to not play that game.

Also, online games are just not secure. If someone pays $500 for a premium account, and then Mythic has to destroy / delete a bunch of faked items, then they will lose that customer. Hell, Origin has fired employees who sold items to players.

Mythic wants to protect its legitimate business. And doing so by their estimates requires that they not allow the trading of the virtual items. And I agree with them.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[D'karr]

Copyright

The biggest problem is that the way that software is copyrighted is beyond retarded.

You buy software with an asset. But you don't own the software. You are only licensed to use it however the software manufacturer stipulated in its Licensing Agreement.

That is the same as saying that if you bought a car from Dodge you were only allowed to use it on Thursdays because any other usage would be against the Licensing Agreement.

Something has to be done about licensing so that the consumer doesn't get screwed everytime the software manufacturer decides that it is not convenient (cost effective) to provide support for XYZ software.

I know software is not "real" property such as a car is but the concept of servicing for that software should be the same.

 

[Grendel]

If Mythic wanted to, they could sell premium accounts that have plenty of money and magic items. They do not. Doing so would cause many people to not play that game.

really they do not have shops where you can buy equipment?
this is the most unusual concept for a MMORPG that i have seen yet. Must you craft all your own gear or do you start with all the gear you need.

If you aren't allow to trade or give extra items to other players, then how is this group getting into trouble, did they ha><or the Gibson and change the code, or was it intergrated into the game by the design team as a legitimate avenue of play.

If one group cannot trade items then no group should be able to, that mean you cannot "give" your extra equipment to you friend. Becasue it is no differnt that what they are doing.

 

[Hawkshere]

Of course there is an in-game market for goods. I can't pay my rent with platinum peices, however. But wait! I can, actually, if I'm one of these leeches. I can cheat the intent of the game, and sell the virtual platinum for real cash.

This side 'grey' market is always going to exist, and all the game developers can really do is raise the cost of doing business through account bannings. There hasn't been any legal action taken by the game companies against individual players, per se. (There has been law-enforcement action taken against ebay scammer fraud, though.) This so-called law suit is an attack on the ownership rights of the developer regarding character data on their servers.

Of course, the real kicker here is that this is really a publicity stunt, not a real legal case.

 

[Ristamar]

How are they 'money grubbing bastards' when they don't make any money from this? (Unless you're saying they're doing this to make more people actually play the game in order to get the high-level stuff... the horror! )

To be honest, it was mostly a joke (note the *wink*). Mostly. I know Mythic is fairly new in this market.

There have been certain out-of-game 'issues' in the past relating to MMORPG's, specifically pertaining to Sony's Everquest, that I thought were handled poorly (by Sony/Verant). I wonder what additional problems Mythic, Verant, and others will face in the future and how they'll handle them. Guess it'll be interesting too see how this unfolds. I'm still pondering the morality/legality of these MMORPG auctions, at the moment, but I do find the sums of real cash people are shelling out for characters and equipment to be rather amusing, at the very least.

www.penny-arcade.com

 

[Tsyr]

Your logic won't work Grendel... you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Because Mythic provides services to trade goods in one respect does not mean they allow all forms of trade. In terms of Everquest at least (I play DaoC so very rarely anymore I'm not familiar with all their policies) there are even certain types of "legit" in game trades that will get you in trouble (Scams, for example).

Besides, despite what you claim, it's not "precedent".

Many companies don't allow employees to smoke on the job. In fact, I'm fairly sure the vast majority do not. However, many of these same companies provide areas, either a room or a space outside yet still on the property, that employees can smoke. However, if you tried to make a case in court that it was OK if you were chompin on a big 'ol cigar while building computers on an assembly line just becuase you could do so in the employee break room, you would probably be laughed out of court. I know you wouldn't win the case.

It all boils down to the EULA... Which gives the company (Be they Verant, Origins, Funcom, Mythic, you name it) every legal right to ban you if you violate their rules. Because EVERY SINGLE ACTION you did that resulted in a modification of the data of your character (which, by the way, they own, not you) was done under a legaly binding agreement to abide by their terms, which you were not required to agree to.