[OT] My 13 yr old son got accepted into CCNA course.

[Gargoyle]

I'm gonna take a different route with this one.

....

I'd say you're stuck in a routing loop. (ok, bad attempt at network humor)

While I agree with most of your points I couldn't disagree more with your conclusions. We need to keep our kids interested in high tech, particularly in the most technical, highest paying jobs that exist. If we don't, they won't get them. Many kids don't even know that networking jobs exist.

Brainburn: Congrats.

 

[reapersaurus]

We need to keep our kids interested in high tech, particularly in the most technical, highest paying jobs that exist. If we don't, they won't get them.

Why should kids be pursuing the most technical, highest paying jobs when they should be trying to get into the field by which they can GET (eventually) to that high-paying job.

For those of you not in networking, let me try to think of an analogy for a kid learning Cisco before learning basic computer hardware, software, and networks:

Would you want a kid to become certified in racing a Formula 1 racing car instead of getting a learner's permit for a normal car?

I would presume the answer would be no.
For a few good reasons: Formula1 racers (I'd guess) would have to be VERY good drivers to be able to handle that kind of car, with so much riding on the line with every misstep.
They would have had to learn how to drive many kinds of vehicles before they got handed the keys to a (very expensive) race car.

Now think of high schools spending 10's of thousands of dollars (perhaps 100,000 dollars) to teach Formula1 certification instead of using the funds to teach kids how to drive.

Oh, wait - they took away that funding and now you have to pay for your kid to learn how to drive a normal vehicle.

 

[Brainburn]

The game plan

Here is the general game plan for what he wants to do.

1. Take the class and get as much "learning" as he can get. Pass the course with good grades (not ok grades).

2. I work at a cellular company as an RF Engineer. He will come and do an apprenticeship with our internet dept. configuring and setting up routers, telnetting into them and troubleshooting them when the need arises. We provide both IDSL (ISDN) and ADSL services to our customers not to mention the business accounts we have working with dedicated T1s.

3. Then he is going to start working on his A+ the following year. I have a mini lab setup in my office and he can get his hands on it and tear up as much crap as possible. Then of course fix it.

It would be incredibly irresponsible for me to hand him the keys, send him on his merry way and then start teaching him how to drive when he got back home. We have seriously thought this out and taken advantage of a gift provided by his school. The teacher took it upon herself and secured a $10,000 grant to establish this program and introduce technology to the kids. She has also secured 31 Handspring Visor Deluxe for the class to use and get familiar with. Along with the Visors she secured a couple of GPSs, digital camera attachments and some other stuff. She is VERY involved with tech and the kids.

I agree completely with the hesitation of a 13 year old to "dilute the pool" so to speak.

I hope this clears it up a bit.

Brainburn "the proud and common sense capable dad"

 

[poilbrun]

Why should kids be pursuing the most technical, highest paying jobs when they should be trying to get into the field by which they can GET (eventually) to that high-paying job.

For those of you not in networking, let me try to think of an analogy for a kid learning Cisco before learning basic computer hardware, software, and networks:

Would you want a kid to become certified in racing a Formula 1 racing car instead of getting a learner's permit for a normal car?

I would presume the answer would be no.
For a few good reasons: Formula1 racers (I'd guess) would have to be VERY good drivers to be able to handle that kind of car, with so much riding on the line with every misstep.
They would have had to learn how to drive many kinds of vehicles before they got handed the keys to a (very expensive) race car.

Now think of high schools spending 10's of thousands of dollars (perhaps 100,000 dollars) to teach Formula1 certification instead of using the funds to teach kids how to drive.

Oh, wait - they took away that funding and now you have to pay for your kid to learn how to drive a normal vehicle.

Your example isn't really good, since most of F1 racer were running races before getting their driving licence, since in most european country you cannot get your driving licence before 18 but where the races begin at 16 for the juniors... IIRC, of course.

But I see your point and totally agree with you...

But anyway, congrats to your son Brainburn, you can be proud of him!

 

[novyet]

Re: The game plan

Here is the general game plan for what he wants to do.

1. Take the class and get as much "learning" as he can get. Pass the course with good grades (not ok grades).

2. I work at a cellular company as an RF Engineer. He will come and do an apprenticeship with our internet dept. configuring and setting up routers, telnetting into them and troubleshooting them when the need arises. We provide both IDSL (ISDN) and ADSL services to our customers not to mention the business accounts we have working with dedicated T1s.

3. Then he is going to start working on his A+ the following year. I have a mini lab setup in my office and he can get his hands on it and tear up as much crap as possible. Then of course fix it.

It would be incredibly irresponsible for me to hand him the keys, send him on his merry way and then start teaching him how to drive when he got back home. We have seriously thought this out and taken advantage of a gift provided by his school. The teacher took it upon herself and secured a $10,000 grant to establish this program and introduce technology to the kids. She has also secured 31 Handspring Visor Deluxe for the class to use and get familiar with. Along with the Visors she secured a couple of GPSs, digital camera attachments and some other stuff. She is VERY involved with tech and the kids.

I agree completely with the hesitation of a 13 year old to "dilute the pool" so to speak.

I hope this clears it up a bit.

Brainburn "the proud and common sense capable dad"

I hope when the time comes, I'll do as well for my kids. Congrats to you and your son Brainburn. Sounds like you got a hell of a dedicated teacher in that district as well.

 

[Brainburn]

I'm gonna take a different route with this one.

However, I am NOT in favor of high schoolers having Cisco courses available to them.
I cannot imagine the cost to the taxpayer for these supplemental classes, and most importantly, unless your son has the equivalent knowledge of A+, Network+, and an MCSE, there are MANY better courses which will :
a) provide a better stepwise learning track for him, and
b) be much more marketable to him in entering a career field.

I totally agree with this statement. Understand though that his dad is MCSE certified and has a lab for him to screw up and fix.
While he doesn't know binary yet or hex he will. He also has a great working knowledge computer hardware and electronic circuits. He is the kind of kid that drives me crazy with questions from one of my old basic electronic books he picked up and started to read. But on the opposite side of the coin he likes archery, grappling, fencing and the woods of any kind


Do you mind me asking you what the process was for acceptance into this CCNA course?
I'm very interested in hearing more about this programs that it seems more and more high schools are providing as a benefit to kids.

And that's really the problem with the classes:
No kid, realistically, is going to be able to take advantage of this CCNA certification in the job force for many years.
[/QUOTE]

I agree again. He is also going to go to college after high school. But understand that I couldn’t possibly pass up this opportunity.



You don't get hired into the IT field as a Router Administrator.
Those jobs are the most senior positions that departments have.
Millions of dollars are riding on every little mistake.
That's why they get paid lots of money.

As an entry-level position (help desk, technician, etc) it would behoove your son's career to have the A+ certificate much more than a CCNA.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Please refer to my other post.
He is in no way expecting anything of the sort

Rhian is a very lucky and unlucky guy. I am the kind of a$$hole dad that will evaluate his driving ability and determine whether or not he will be able to drive. Damn his license. He is subject to my standard. Not the state of Mississippi’s. It would be irresponsible of me to turn him loose with a padded resume into the work force to destroy someone’s hard earned network/ revenue. He is totally aware of what I stand for and we have long discussions about life and what will be expected of him by his employers. He wont be judged by his employer’s work ethic. He will be judged by his (which is a shadow of mine). We decided to take advantage of this program and began the “rounding out” of his skill set to better take advantage of it. You can either be an asset to society or a detriment. He will be an asset.
I am also the kind of dad that will make him maintain his body along with his mind. In addition to his grappling (not wrestling but jui-jitsu) we will start on Tai-Chi and yoga to round out his body/mental capabilities with meditation. He will continue his fencing, reading, walking in the woods, survival training and being an all around kid anyone would want to have.
Now my questions to you.
Have you ever met a kid that can go to a dinner party and know what order a formal meal will be served and what utensils to use? Or go to a dinner party and be able to hold a semi intelligent conversation about most subjects to include the arts and music (and opera which I personally can’t stand). If he doesn’t know the topic he will turn it into a learning environment and ask questions.
Have you ever met a kid that can hold an intelligent conversation about shooting techniques, with both pistols and long guns, which are both accurate and current? We are working on archery right now. I don’t know enough about it so we are looking for someone to hang out with and learn.
I do. He is my son.
These are all his interests. Not mine imposed on him. I sometimes have to go and learn a topic to answer some of his questions. But I will never prevent him from doing anything (within reason) to round out his experiences and abilities.
We also wont hesitate to sit our sorry butts down and watch a marathon of Batman Beyond or **whispering** powerpuff girls. God that was painful.
I know my time is short with him. The minute he takes a serious interest in dating I will never have the opportunity to guide him or “hang out” with him again. I will never push him but I will feed him as much as he can possibly stomach.


Mike Peterman aka “Brainburn”
18E ODA-196
Father

 

[Brainburn]

Re: Re: The game plan

I hope when the time comes, I'll do as well for my kids. Congrats to you and your son Brainburn. Sounds like you got a hell of a dedicated teacher in that district as well.

I thank you very much. I take that as the highest form of a compliment.

We are fortunate indeed to have her as a teacher.

Thanks again.
Brainburn

 

[GILGAMESH]

Congratulations, Son of brainburn!!

It is great to hear about the great things young people are doing today. I congratulate you on your parenting and the pride you share with us of your son!! And congratulations to your son for his hard work and focus (Especially at the age of 13!)!! Sounds like your doing a fantastic job raising a fantastic young man!!!

 

[Gargoyle]

Why should kids be pursuing the most technical, highest paying jobs when they should be trying to get into the field by which they can GET (eventually) to that high-paying job.

---

I never said they should pursue the highest paying jobs right away.

Let me clarify what I meant: They should be aware of the high tech, high paying opportunities as soon as they have the ability to understand them, so they can start working towards these opportunities as soon as possible, if that's what they want.

I somewhat disagree with the formula one racing car analogy. You do not need to know PC hardware and software before you can learn networking. The CCNA is an entry level certification, and there are entry level jobs out there that require nothing else, such as in network management or a with a low level IT integrator or ISP. I'm not really recommending that path, and would actually recommend going to college and getting a CCNP while doing intern work, if you want to get into networking as fast as possible. The CCNA in high school could help with that.

Furthermore, you don't always need to "pay your dues" by working through several other departments to get to a networking job. IT integrators will hire you based on certifications and a minimal amount of network experience.

The biggest barrier to a networking job is access to the equipment. No one can afford to buy $100,000 worth of equipment to practice on in order to get the certifications.

CCNA training in high school is a good idea for the following reasons:

1. It can help you get a great entry level job, or better yet give you a boost while in college.
2. It gets kids excited about technology and presents them with a choice.
3. It's not above a talented high school student's capabilities, even if they don't have a heavy PC background. It's just not that hard...

Just so you know my background, I have 12 years experience in the IT industry. I've worked as a senior network engineer for a Fortune 500 IT integrator for the past 3 years doing nothing but Cisco design and implementation, and presales engineering. My customers include one of the nation's largest corporate investment banks, large manufacturing companies, and various government organizations. I have a CCNP, a CCDP, and a CNE. I let my MCSE expire recently, and I've taken the CCIE written test, and have failed the lab once. I'll take it again next year. (I think most people pass it on the fourth time...)

While it's true I've got a lot of experience working on electronics, desktop PCs, NT, and Novell, I don't think any of it is necessary to get into networking today. I bill customers anywhere from $135 to $175 per hour, and I feel that's pretty reasonable, if not a bargain. If I got into networking earlier, and skipped all the Novell and NT, I'd have my CCIE already and would be billing more. I'm envious of my coworkers that have done nothing but networking and I feel like my non-networking experience hinders more than it helps because of time wasted. But that's hindsight.

I can see your point Reapersaurus, and I respect your opinion, so don't think I'm totally against what you're trying to say. With a limited amount of funds, schools have to make the best of what they've got, and some basic A+ or Network + (the latter is better...) cert training might make more sense. And to be honest, I dislike vendor-specific training in schools. It reminds me of how Apple and Microsoft try to indoctrinate kids into learning computers their way by donating "free" hardware and software. A non-vendor specific course would be better. But these days, as a parent or student, I'd take what you can get.

Again, congrats Brainburn, sounds like you've got a great kid with a bright future.

 

[reapersaurus]

But these days, as a parent or student, I'd take what you can get.

Again, congrats Brainburn, sounds like you've got a great kid with a bright future.

I think your 2 last statements sum things up very well.

1) I think it would be quite silly for anyone to pass up such an opportunity.

2) I think Brainburn's son will no doubt succeed, not only for whatever skills he may possess, but if Brainburn can get him an internship, that's about all that's needed to enter the field.

So it certainly sounds like you've thought it out, BB, and that's always good to hear.

Too many people take such an unrealistic approach to careers, it's scary.
A auto mechanic hears that Cisco engineers pull down over $100 an hour, and decides to take a loan, take a course, and expects to come out with a high-paying job.

It doesn't work that way anymore.
There are thousands of experienced networking people who were laid off the last year, so it has gotten a lot harder to open up doors when you have only book experience.
Once you GET that first job, though, it still opens up a lot more opportunities than in many other fields (and $$ opportunities).

BB, congrats on having a plan laid out, and your approach seems very sound.

I was NOT saying your son won't make it.

Gargoyle:

You do not need to know PC hardware and software before you can learn networking. The CCNA is an entry level certification, and there are entry level jobs out there that require nothing else

I don't agree with this at all.
I think you're doing yourself a great disservice not learning hardware and software for any computer-related job.

I have heard hundreds of tales of people in high-paying jobs who really don't know that much about computers because they seem to have concentrated on just what they needed to know to get thast one job done.

That might help you do that one task, for that one employer, but it won't help you in the long run.
In fact, one cert doesn't cut it in the slightly, of course.
You must continually learn and expand your knowledge base or technology will trample you faster than a Sauropod with a bee stuck in his butt.

As for entry level jobs that allow you to do Cisco routing .... you must live in a different kind of job environment, is all I can say.

I agree with other things you said.
Network+ is a MUCH better introduction to networking than CCNA.

And FOR YOU, perhaps a greater concentration on networking and routing would have gotten you farther, faster than you are today.
However, I think it's safe to say that you shouldn't be copying your background for someone starting out today.
It is a different place, and the last 10 years are not what it's like anymore in networking today.

(I'm really just stating the obvious here, but...) When advising people, you should take the GENERAL into account, not a couple people's experiences.
Hundreds and thousands of people try to get into this field every year.
Some are successful, some are not.
Unless you can rely on knowing somebody to get you a job (which STILL is the best way to get a new career, don't let anyone dismiss that), you should have a solid plan and breadth of knowledge before entering the field.

enough for now.
good discussion -
now, Gargoyle - explain this to me - WHY the heck would you not be working ALL the time as a Routing engineer if you can make 1/4 of that an hour, instead of trying to make money in the RPG field.
THAT should be an interesting reply.