D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[cignus_pfaccari]

Sorry, meant "write down now, what you like about SR, and in 9 months, see what remains".

Rolling heaping handfuls of dice.

Having automatic weapons that don't suck.

People killing each other over the results of an archaeological dig.

Being able to use modern adventure fiction as ideas for plots, behaviors, and gadgets.

The phrase "Geek the mage first!"

Brad

 

[TwistedBishop]

All these things are very general. I don't know if they really make SR what it is.

Deckers were a key part of the SR flavor. We had seen cyberspace hackers before, but SR coined the new name and style for them. It evolved entire communities based around them, and matrix-based plots were some of the most interesting Shadowrun metaplot developments. To make them into "technological versions of wizards", going around "casting" something like Shut Off Camera-4, seems like a horrible reconstruction. There's a line game designers and writers shouldn't cross, if it destroys what makes a concept, slightly inconvenient rules be damned. These decker issues are nothing new from the very beginning of the game, and right now a matrix run is far quicker than they were back then. And Shadowrun was FASA's biggest moneymaker of the time? How amazing that it sold, what, hundreds of thousands of books with these (apparently) awful and unplayable systems. Are astral space, metaplane quests, and drone reconnaissance next on the chopping block because they exclude some characters? How about vehicle combat rules along with the matrix ones, since they apparently want to dumb down mechanics, pandering to people who rather an entire ruleset change than be pressed to take the time and learn them.

I'm sorry, I can't see this as anything but FanPro's ham-fisted attempts to warp the game into what their tastes fancy, not what the game should be, on some pretense that these changes will bring in new players.

But *will* Shadowrun 4th Edition bring in new players? I imagine it will, the attention and hype of any new edition brings in some new players. People even bought WoD 2.0. Doesn't mean it's any good.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I'm uneasy about getting rid of cyberdecks as well. On a side note if cyberdecks no longer exist I wonder if they'll even have Otaku in SR4. Will all deckers effectively work similar to Otaku? Is there going to be a reason why deckers no longer exist or are they just going to pretend nothing ever happened?

No body said SR3, SR2 or SR1 were unplayable. But I know SR3 (the only edition of the game I've played) wasn't very streamlined. I think though that had more to do with the layout of the book and how the rules are explain in the book than with the rules being illogical.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I'm uneasy about getting rid of cyberdecks as well. On a side note if cyberdecks no longer exist I wonder if they'll even have Otaku in SR4. Will all deckers effectively work similar to Otaku? Is there going to be a reason why deckers no longer exist or are they just going to pretend nothing ever happened?

From the main page of the SR Site:
"Matrix 2.0! An all-new level of wireless “augmented reality” overlays the real world, unleashing hackers to be mobile digital wizards.
The year is 2070 five years since the System Failure took down the old Matrix"

There is no matrix, so probably no Otaku. There are no cyberdecks, there are no deckers.
It still seems to me that this matchs more a refinement of the Rigger & CCSS setups, rather than anything deckers ever did.
I imagine they wouldn't be silly enough to ditch the online environment of SR1-3, but no idea what changes will occur.

No body said SR3, SR2 or SR1 were unplayable. But I know SR3 (the only edition of the game I've played) wasn't very streamlined. I think though that had more to do with the layout of the book and how the rules are explain in the book than with the rules being illogical.

D&D 3e was badly laid out, 3.5 better. Each version of SR has learned to introduce concepts better, but dumbing down the system seems counterproductive. If you want a more accessible system, go d20
Seriously though, some parts of the setting were just the way they were. If you have to get rid of Deckers to make them more accessible, it seems you don't understand the appeal of deckers.
The melee combat had problems too, does that mean they're getting rid of hand-to-hand? Maybe the Magic Level has risen to the point that you can't get closer than 3' from someone...

 

[Andor]

From the main page of the SR Site:
"Matrix 2.0! An all-new level of wireless “augmented reality” overlays the real world, unleashing hackers to be mobile digital wizards.
The year is 2070 five years since the System Failure took down the old Matrix"

Is it just me, or does that sound almost exactly like the 'Virtuality' of Cyber-Generation?

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

So what, all archetypes can now go onto the Matrix or whatever the new one's called? In a way, that'll eliminate the problem with running deckers, wherein the rest of the party has squat to do while the decker's working his mojo...

 

[Kesh]

Is it just me, or does that sound almost exactly like the 'Virtuality' of Cyber-Generation?

A few people on Dumpshock made that comment, but it doesn't really sound the same. From what we're reading, it sounds like the basic system is more like the "wearable computer" concept being developed at MIT. A heads-up display that gives you information on your surroundings, the guy who just walked up to you and introduced himself... only the Matrix version would allow you to instantly search his resume, news articles about him, look up his home address and find out what the average response time for the cops is in this part of town.

We're hoping that any actual hacking requires dropping into full-immersion Simsense, kinda like the difference between astral perception and astral projection is for mages & shamans.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

A few people on Dumpshock made that comment, but it doesn't really sound the same. From what we're reading, it sounds like the basic system is more like the "wearable computer" concept being developed at MIT. A heads-up display that gives you information on your surroundings, the guy who just walked up to you and introduced himself... only the Matrix version would allow you to instantly search his resume, news articles about him, look up his home address and find out what the average response time for the cops is in this part of town.

We're hoping that any actual hacking requires dropping into full-immersion Simsense, kinda like the difference between astral perception and astral projection is for mages & shamans.

If this should actually be how it'll go, then a "hacker" will be THE walking nightmare for any GM in any SR game, knowing from experience that a lot of players like nothing better than pestering the GM for additional info on "that toilet cleaner guy over there, we might need it to slip into the building"or "hey, that chick looks rad, I'll try to get her LTG# and home address". Or switching off every little electronic gadget on their way to the subway "because I can and it's fun"...ugh, no thanks!

 

[Umbran]

I'm sorry, I can't see this as anything but FanPro's ham-fisted attempts to warp the game into what their tastes fancy, not what the game should be, on some pretense that these changes will bring in new players.

I'm sorry,but there is no objective "should be" for a game. It is a matter of taste. Any attempt to impose a particular "should be" is about as much a "ham fisted attempt to warp the game" to fit particular tastes as theirs.

Case in point - I love SR, and played it for years. But, I have never played or run a game with PC deckers in it, period. I don't feel they are at all as required as you do. So, we each think the game "should" be different things.

 

[TwistedBishop]

I'm sorry,but there is no objective "should be" for a game. It is a matter of taste.

There most definitely is a way the game should be. Are we supposed to strip down Shadowrun to "it's in the future, you play with d6s" and everything else is up for grabs? No thanks, I can get that anywhere. I have bought Shadowrun since its release because of the world it presented, and despite numerous rules changes and metaplots, that world has never been taken from me. As it should be. Until now.

This isn't a matter of "well I don't like deckers, so I won't use them". That's a matter of taste. This isn't "I like SR1 matrix combat to VR2.0's revision, I'll use that instead". That's a matter of taste. This is no less than the extermination of deckers, an integral part of the game's identity, and that's crippling a part of what made Shadowrun into Shadowrun. Whether you like deckers or not is a matter of taste. That they belong in the SR universe is a matter of fact.

It's amazing to me that here you have seven pages of people decrying making SR into a d20 system, on the notion that even changing the mechanics will destroy the game universe, but this sort of massive concept shift is shrugged off.

I didn't start playing Shadowrun to play the game FanPro has perverted it into. Infact, no one signed up for their version of the game, they kept buying it because it was "Shadowrun" (a great game designed by a great company, long long ago). It has been diminishing for the past few years (each book more disappointing than the last, each purchase a more bitter pill to swallow), slowly being co-opted by people whose talent and motives I have reason to doubt, but now it's looking to become the FASA game in name only. Maybe it's for the best, as now I can put the line behind me once and for all, and stop supporting people that puppet around the corpse of something I once loved.