ToV Other than "It's not made by WotC", what's the elevator pitch for Tales of the Valiant?

Tales of the Valiant (Black Flag)

jeffh

Adventurer
Every so often Tales of the Valiant draws my interest as a 5E alternative that seems to have quite a bit of support, but... it just doesn't seem all that exciting? Mostly I see 5E with some tweaks, not all of them clear improvements, and most small enough that if I did decide I liked them enough, they would not be difficult to import into 5E, or possibly other D&D-like games such as Level Up! And, several of its improvements seem to have also been incorporated into the 2024 version of the mothership. (For context, I'm fairly heavily invested into 2014 5E but have yet to spend a cent on the 2024 version.)

Is it even worth it (and if so why), or is this a game I can safely give a miss?
 

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If you have D&D 2014, the pitch pretty much is just “D&D but not by WotC”.

2024 and A5E iterate on 2024 (in very different ways) and ToV tweaks it. It has a couple of new features, but not as much as A5E. Mainly the Luck system is pretty cool and can be imported into the others easily enough.

That’s not a criticism. If you want 2014 D&D by someone other than WotC, ToV is your baby. If you want an iteration of 2014, you need 2024 or A5E. Or if you want a more dramatic departure there’s Nimble5E.

It’s great that there’s a version of D&D for a bunch of diffferent tastes.
 

I think it's a better revision of the 5e game than what WotC did--I especially think the way they handled moving things out of being "because you were born an elf" and such is better than in 5e 2024--and the Game Master's Guide is worlds better, especially if you're at all experienced running the game: It actually has ideas in it (gasp!) as well as guidelines for homebrewing things, which I don't remember seeing any of in the revised DMG. There are changes to the cosmology (The Labyrinth and such) that might also appeal, if just as something different from the Big Wheel, as well as to at least some of the monsters, and alignment is entirely thrown out (I've never asked for a PC's alignment in over 300 sessions of 5e, YMMV).

That said, it's actually seemed to me like a less dramatic departure from 2014 than the 2024 revision--though in the interests of fairness I've played some ToV and only read the 2024 revision.

So, it's not just "D&D, but not by WotC."
 

Every so often Tales of the Valiant draws my interest as a 5E alternative that seems to have quite a bit of support, but... it just doesn't seem all that exciting? Mostly I see 5E with some tweaks, not all of them clear improvements, and most small enough that if I did decide I liked them enough, they would not be difficult to import into 5E, or possibly other D&D-like games such as Level Up! And, several of its improvements seem to have also been incorporated into the 2024 version of the mothership. (For context, I'm fairly heavily invested into 2014 5E but have yet to spend a cent on the 2024 version.)

Is it even worth it (and if so why), or is this a game I can safely give a miss?
I think you’ve got the gist of it. It is an update to the 5e rules, and largely depends on how much you think 5e rules need updating, and then specifically if these updates speak to you. If you don’t feel strongly about the need for a rules update and that any of the rulesets are just chipping away at the margins, then it may not be for you, or it could be something to wait longer on.

I think one of my favorite reviews and breakdowns came from Gnome Stew here: Tales of the Valiant Player's Guide Review
 

I especially think the way they handled moving things out of being "because you were born an elf" and such is better than in 5e 2024
Anything is better than WotC's version of that particular thing, but ToV is probably the smallest change of the non-WotC options. But yes, you are right, it is better than WotC's take. If 'moving out of things of being because you were born an elf' is your driver, you want A5E, which dials that up to 11 by completely separating heritage and culture.
 


Anything is better than WotC's version of that particular thing, but ToV is probably the smallest change of the non-WotC options. But yes, you are right, it is better than WotC's take. If 'moving out of things of being because you were born an elf' is your driver, you want A5E, which dials that up to 11 by completely separating heritage and culture.
I have A5e, and haven't been able to muster more than distant respect for it. ToV, as it happens, separates lineage and heritage pretty completely, best I can see. I'll stick with the game I've chosen to run, thanks.
 

Not an elevator pitch, but ToV is the TTRPG that Kobold's Midgard World setting will be focused on moving forward. I'm a huge fan of Midgard and have run campaigns set in it with 3 different TTRPGs. And while I can homebrew to my heart's content with what I have, Kobold has consistently released a steady stream of constant for it over the past decade. So for me the World of Midgard is the main compulsion for owning and running ToV.
 

It's a better revision of 2014 than 2024 is, IMO, but nothing too radical. For me the weird part is that it appeared in the midst of the OGL Kerfuffle, but they have only released a limited SRD under various licenses. Not the whole books. This is in contrast to, say, Paizo, who continues to release core products under generous licenses.

Is it a good game? Yes. Heck, yes. Who is it for? I have no idea, really. People who like the color blue. People who want Midgard releases in their native game system, first.
 

So, lets break it down.

I own 2014 books, ToV books, and 2024 books. I've played A5E before, but don't own the books. I also like Grim Hollow stuff by Ghostfire Gaming. I would consider all 5 of these to be "5e" as pieces are interchangeable. You can take a barbarian from ToV and play it at the same table with a 2024 bard and an A5E warlock with the game master using ToV rules and 2014 monsters in a Grim Hollow campaign. Its all 5e because its all interchangable. This is something Sly Flourish talks about a lot.

So what is ToV then over D&D?
1) classes - ToV classes are more interesting than both 2014 and 2024 rules hands down. They are more fun to play without being more complicated. This isn't even a discussion, just look at the two rangers core exploration skill for example.

2024: Deft Explorer
Choose one of your skill proficiencies with which you lack Expertise. You gain Expertise in that skill.
You know two languages of your choice from the language tables in chapter 2.
ToV: Explorer
You gain either a climbing speed or swimming speed equal to your base movement speed.
You have advantage on checks to track a creature
Your speed isn't halved when moving through nonmagical or magical difficult terrain. You suffer other penalties as normal

The ToV Ranger is dynamic, game changing. The 2024 ranger is just a numbers bump. This happens throughout every class in the game.

2) Balance - Yeah, this is a cooperative game but balance does matter anyway. If you have ever struggled as DM to make sure everyone, including yourself, is having fun at the table because of fun imbalance then you know what I'm going to talk about here.

In ToV the martial classes just hit way harder. Their damage output and group viability lasts much longer than spell casters. 2024 they fall off at pretty much the same as they always have once casters get access to AoE, Banish, etc. Rogue got especially nerfed in 2024 rules and I wouldn't even consider it a viable character choice anymore except for the really good roleplay. If I was playing a 2024 table I would heavily suggest using 2014, ToV, or A5E rogue.

Also, talents/feats are more balanced in ToV. None of them feel like "must haves" on a character which in 2024 means limited choices. Great Weapon Master continues to be a must-have in 2024 even though it got nerfed from 2014 just because the other choices are lackluster. Crusher is probably another good 2024 feat, but it pales in comparison to GWM. If both were going to be taken, GWM is always taken first. This limits choice. To contrast, in ToV, you would be just as happy with Heavy Weapon Mastery as you would be with Furious Charge, Shield Mastery (what!?), Vanguard, and Weapon Discipline.

That isn't even taking the brand new ToV book, "Book of Blades" into consideration which really helps power up martial classes even more to bridge the gap between the "hit a lot of times fighter" and "can literally rain meteors wizard" (sorry for the oversimplification, I love playing both because I'm a roleplayer first ;) ) This isn't something 2024 really cares about. 2014 and 2024 never bothered to figure out the divide between martials and casters.

There's other aspects to balance too. 2024 rules just have more things you have to nerf with homebrew rules if you have an optimizing player in your game. They will absolutely optimize their way out of fun if they work with summoned creatures, enspelled item creation, or just go with some broken spell combinations. I haven't found any of this in ToV yet. Not for lack of trying, its just really hard to break the game to make it "not fun" in ToV. Bastions in 2024 rules were a good attempt to fix a problem of "too much money" but instead of actually fixing it, they made it worse? Like, that whole system needs to be thrown out if you have an optimizing set of players and you aren't prepared for that as DM. ToV will be fixing this problem in their unreleased Players Guide 2 coming next year. (or else Imma gonna rant some more on this core 5e economy problem).

3) Luck, Doom, and Expanded Doom - Steal this for your 5e game if you haven't already, this killer subsystem in ToV shows just how much they care about the gameplay experience. Plus, its plug and play. Replace Inspiration with Luck Points, max of 5, if they go over they roll 1d4 for their new total. Gain luck by missing a roll, 1 per turn max.

The reason this is better than inspiration is pretty simple, its something you don't have to manage as DM.

Luck - Spend 1 luck to add 1 to any check (2 to add 2, etc), spend 3 luck to reroll a d20
Expanded luck (my homebrew) can add luck points one at a time to anything or spend 3 to reroll anything. Simple, powerful.

Doom - A DM tool to turn the tides of a one sided battle in the favor of FUN. - Are they steam rolling your BBEG? Use a DOOM point! give your creature advantage on their next poisoned stinger, give a PC disadvantage to save against banishment, recharge your dragon's breath weapon. DMs get 1 Doom per tier of play (kinda)

Expanded Doom - in the Game Masters Guide and in Sly Flourish videos they both talk about the concept of using your extremely limited Doom resource to do things that are outside the rules entirely. Not only can you gain more Doom when the players do things that are incredibly unlucky (like falling in an obvious trap) but you can also spend Doom to do things that are Legendary action/save worthy, or even Lair action worthy on the fly. Did the party teleport to a ledge above your owlbear? Use a Doom point to have it push its wings to the limit and fly up after them once in its life! Are they using spell sniping and longbows to trivialize your ogre encampment? Have the Ogre Leader use a Doom point to close the gap in a single turn, leaving his minions behind! Players will sometimes optimize the fun out of the game, and as the DM feel free to use Doom to re-gain that fun without being too punishing.

4) Spellcasting - ToV copies 2014 spells wholesale and fixes the wording on spells that were abiguous at the same time. So all the favorites are there. But this isn't a clear cut win for ToV at all. For example, I think 2024 healing spells are way better for gameplay reasons. 2014 and ToV healing is all about keeping people alive, 2024 is about keeping people healthy. For a healer archetype, the latter is more fun gameplay.
Fortunately, ToV has a killer feature for spellcasting to talk about. Rituals! Not only are there vastly more rituals in ToV, but they're also completely separated in the spell list. No longer do you have to wait the awkward 10 minutes for a ritual to work, the time on the Duration is the time it takes to cast. You CANNOT cast rituals using slots, they are only rituals. This separation allows them to have more power and more variety as there's less ways you can use them to break the game. Rituals as a consequence have amazing flavor like Oculus Blossoms and Song of the Forest as well as extra power like Guards and Wards or Instant Summons. Future ToV books will add even more rituals almost as a given because there's far less power creep to worry about. Rituals don't have to be normal spell action durations like in 2024, they can be weird, wonderful, and whimsical.

5) GM rules, worldbuilding, adventure creation - The ToV game masters guide and 2024 Dungeon Masters Guide both get GLOWING reviews. I recommend reading/watching reviews for both and make your decision but for my eyes the GMG is more useful forever, whereas the 2024 rules are just more useful for starting GMs. The 2024 rules are the best D&D has ever been, but ToV is just... better. Rollable tables for set dressing, dungeon creation help, how to create a multiverse, what does 'show don't tell' even mean. The 2024 Dungeon Master Guide is a book to learn the rules and get started playing a game. The ToV Game Master's Guide not only does that, but its also the book you want on your table while you play the game with sticky notes in it to add even more goofy fun. Heck, do you want a list of movies to watch for game inspiration? The ToV GMG has that in an appendix LOL.

6) Monsters ooohh boy monsters - Look at a stat block in each game, just pick your favorite. I won't judge. But when you're ready to go beyond the basic 2024 Monster Manual or ToV Monster Vault that's when things get amazing for ToV. Because Kobold Press does monsters. LOOOOOOOTS of monsters. So many books of monsters with glorious artwork, flavorful abilities, and crushing damage to challenge your powered up players. I would also go so far as to say they're better CR too. Less surprises when you're calculating an encounter and add something too OP for its CR. Whoops 2024 ghost chain-possessed the party to a TPK at CR4. That won't happen in ToV because it isn't FUN. Every single monster has been looked at through this lense. It has to be fun, not unfair. Interesting, not just powerful.

X) little things - ToV doesn't make me upset with the dumbest little things. ToV has PDFs, 2024 has a subscription service. In ToV its called Lineage, not species. Hiding doesn't make you literally invisible. Surprised condition in ToV is not only worded clearly compared to 2014, it isn't boring like 2024. These little things permeate so much of the books, its honestly hard to lock it all down. Just the text of every little description has been gone over with care. Do you think the rules in ToV mean X? Ask the developers, its definitely X. In 2024 it might be anything under the sun, who knows. Sage Advice is still necessary but Crawford and Perkins are working for Daggerheart now so who do you trust?

BTW Daggerheart is a great system too lol. Play that if you don't want all the 5e I just waxed poetic on.
 
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