Ousting deities...

[Archimago]

I want to remove deities from my game world what should be affected? I've already considered the affects on the classes especially the cleric and paladin, deity specific spells (like weapon of the deity from MoF), and religion. For the last I'm going to still have religions around, some local, some more international, but their priests will not have any powers because unlike the default for D&D gods will not really exist or at least there is no guarantee. As for spells I'll just do some renaming or removal as I see fit. At this point this post will diverge, I'm going to present a new class to replace the cleric and paladin that I need evaluated, but if you the reader do not wish to look at another homebrew class then you may care instead to think of other game element affected by the absence of gods.

New Class

The mechanical structure of the cleric is fine so I don't want to tamper with it too much, but I need a new source of power for it. I was thinking of borrowing from the paladin that the cleric's power is from their inner strength. This means that the class' main stat will be CHA. I've already dropped the Sorceror in my homebrew as I combined it with the wizard into one INT-based arcane caster so there's an opening for a nine level caster for CHA.
Besides the source of magic, this class' domain power as to go because it was a special grant by the deity for the clerics to focus on the god's specialty. No god means no specialty. This creates a bit of a vacuum in the class because domains with theiir spell variety, extra slots and new powers were pretty good. My solution to this is to borrow more powers from the Paladin and just dump that class altogether. Now this new class, which I'll call a Paladin if they choose to channel positive energy or a Blackguard if they channel negative energy, with get some abilities from the Paladin/Blackguard models. I was thinking Aura of Courage/Fear, but after that I'm not sure. Maybe one free martial weapon proficiency since the Paladin and Blackguard had the best BAB. Class skills would be the Paladin's or the Blackguard's depending on whether they choose positive or negative energy channeling at level one. There will be no alignment constraints, but good must channel postive, evil negative and neutral gets to pick.
The Paladin class will be dropped altogether as I don't like the half-caster idea anyway. The Blackguard PrC is gone too.
Let me just explain these changes in context with my other class changes.
Rogue, Druid, Fighter, Monk: As PHB
Bard: Quite a bit different, but same concept
Ranger: No spells, combo ranger and barbarian abilities (except rage, which is now a racial ability of Orcs)
WIzard: Semi-spontaneous casting replaces Sorceror and Wizard; INT-based
Sorceror, Barbarian, Paladin: Gone

So my question ends of being what do I grant in place of domains (which I am adamant about dropping to include Paladin/Blackguardish stuff)? I prefer not to have mounts or familiars though.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Off hand i'd really recommend that you dump Clerics if you're ousting gods and replace them with Paladins and Anti-Paladins instead. Clerics are a little overpowered anyhoo - Better to shave them off than the paladin.

 

[dvvega]

You could use the concept introduced in the 2nd edition Cleric's Handbook.

They used things like natural force (sun, moon, stars, night, day) and concepts like (strength, family, law).

Bascially you could either make all clerics worship something occurring in nature, and perhaps something that is only "hinted" at like shadows, or let them worship a concept - "I am a priest of the family ancestors".

 

[Archimago]

anabastercorian - Thanks, but no thanks. I'm keeping the cleric and dumping the Paladin. As far as balance goes, since I'm removing the domain ability, which is very good, I can simply not grant as many or as good powers in return, that would weaken the class and thus address any balance issue.

dvvega - Part of the reason that I am dropping deities (other than being an atheist myself) is that I hated the fact thta clerics had to worship something to get power. I find worship to be, well, submissive, and that's not want most adventurers want to be. Even druids get their power from nature without really worshipping it as they hold in in prime importance but they also protect and steward it, which gives them a somewhat parental role not a subordinate one. Secondly, I like having some kind of explanation as to where powers and such come from, and being a priest of wildflowers or sad clown paintings doesn't seem to contain an explanation within it, and then that begs the questions of why not just use the explanation (ie. inner power) as the centre focus of the class?

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Possibility 1 -

Why not have clerics simply advocate one of the "nine alignments"? A "code of ethics"?

Their power comes from being in harmony with this code (as druids are with nature); and deity oriented spells become much more a matter of spiritualism instead of codified religion. This means that you are most likely going to wind up restricting all clerics to either the elemental domains or alignment domains - and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Sick and twisted possibility 2 -

Why not make the deities "mortals who don't die of old age." - reducing them to little more than

You may also consider rendering it absolute FACT that the "deities" who sponsor "religions" are really nothing more than just supremely powerful immortal spellcasters (probably arcane) who have discovered a means of bestowing spells. Essentially - they have some sort of ultra powerful "mass imbue with spell ability" going on; under rules that they set up to further their own cause.

There are only two "universal" traits to "deific" entities.

1. Such entities do not die of old age - ever.
2. Such entities are extremely powerful.

Sadistic possibility 3 -

If you "combine" options 1 and 2; a cleric's "domain" powers are the only thing REALLY bestowed by the deity; and even then a cleric need only "obey" a religous cause if he wants a domain OTHER than one of the alignment domains or elemental domains.

A cleric's ACTUAL power comes from within; with the sole exeption of the non-alignment/non-element domains they posess. Of course, the following become EXTREMELY interesting possibilities.

1. Does the character know that his deity isn't really "all that"?

2. Does society believe that clerics actual power comes from the deity - or does society as a whole know the actual truth?

3. Do those clerics who "know the truth about spiritual magic" get persecuted by those who actually believe that all divine magic is bestowed by the gods directly?

*** Evil thoughts coming to mind... the Inquisition.... Heretics... burning at the stake... witch hunts... ***

4. What about a cleric who was taught that all power was bestowed... but learns or discovers the truth? What would happen?

5. What if a cleric who has such a domain chooses to leave the "church" - and thus has His special granted domain(s) revoked (the worst the deity could do)? What happens if they CHOOSE to take the alignment or elemental domains instead of the bestowed ones? Can they so choose?

Hmmm... I see possibilities for that atonement spell all of a sudden... as well as all of those other "deity" spells...

 

[Feliath]

Question

I was thinking of borrowing from the paladin that the cleric's power is from their inner strength. This means that the class' main stat will be CHA.

What? I should think that with that reasoning you'd end up with WIS: Inner Strength=Force of Will, ergo: WIS as attribute. I feel Charisma reflects outward force of personality rather than inner strength...

/Feliath - curious

 

[Archimago]

Feliath - WIS refers more to one's connection, albeit spiritual, to something external like nature for druids or a god for PHB clerics. CHA refers to connection to internal power that's why the sorceror and the bard use CHA. This means that my Paladin/Blackguard class would use CHA because they are connecting to something internal.

Magus_Jerel - (Possibility 1) I guess I should have mentioned, but without deities maintaining a cosmic constant, alignments become much more gray. IMC, players don't get alignments, only extraplanar creatures like angels or demons, which are from an alignment plane and epitomize that alignment have one. So, I can't really do anything with alignments.(Possibility 2) Still requires worship and I don't like having a class that is inherently submissive to something, just not very adventurous. (Possibility 3) I really want to not make the cleric class be a cleric of anything, I just wanted a class with the same or similiar abilities but not be rooted in religion at all. Thanks for the effort though, but it just not what I was looking for.

This takes me back to my original two questions which seem to be ignored thus far: What other game facets must be altered to be consistent to a world without deities? What Paladinesque abilities can I grant to the cleric class if I remove the domain ability in order to keep it balanced?

 

[Shirt Guy John]

What? Huh?

Okay, first off, Wisdom does not directly indicate conection to a spiritual force. It is by definition "a character's willpower, comon sense, perception, and intuition". I, uh, wouldn't use Charisma, as it is, yet again by game definition, "a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness".

I have no idea why Sorcerers and Bards use Charisma. The first thing that pops into mind is maybe that it is the force of personality involved with Charisma. Internal power.... *shrug* hell, they don't really have an ability that's really for that.

Things that have to change without Gods? I would think, just about everything in the planar history. I mean, most of the planes are constructed and shaped by the Gods. You're gonna still have some sort of immensely powerful, uh... power. I think you're just thinking of making the Gods not care about or deal with mortals. I would say to just drop cleric and re-work the Paladin into more of a Crusader or Zealot(Drop the religious stuff and make it a code of ethics. Work along the lines of the Samari from Oriental Adventures).

I really don't think the rest of the class changes are God related, right?

Anywho, not a choice I would have made, personally, but if you can work it out without screwing with the game balance(and good luck with that one), it would be cool.

If you're just keeping the Cleric class because it heals, I would recomend searching through these boards for the "Healer" thread. It had good stuff for a non-religious healing class. Works out nicely.