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Out-monking a Monk in 20 levels.

Nyaricus

First Post
So, here's a little challenge my buddy gave me - he wants me to make a character, specifically a fist-fighter, to out-monk his monk. He's still not convinced that even without VoP that the monk is an incredibly short-changed, rather crappy class.

Minuses:
Lots of attacks via FoB, crappy BAB.
Have great speed, but needs a full-attack to get off a FoB
Lots of skills, crappy skill points (and no reason besides skills to have even a half-decent Int)
Damage is decent, if you hit (likely not happening)

Pluses:
Good saves.
Good AC via Wis + Dex.
Good Movement.


So, how can I out-monk his monk class?

Book allowed: all WotC 3.5 plus any 3.0 that are not otherwise updated (ex: OA is allowed, since that wasn't updated to 3.5). I own most of them, and I just got the MIC the other day (which I expect to really help me) so splat book this bad-boy up! I'm trying to stay away from base classes from Bo9S or MoI or the like, so please keep that in mind.

So, what I need for a monk:

Good unarmed damage!
Lots of attacks!
Good saves!
Good AC!
Decent base speed!

I want to use LA +0 or +1 races only. Nothing more, thanks!

Any thoughts/idea spring to mind?


thanks!
--N
 
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StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Does it need to have good SR, too? And poison immunity? And all the other grab bag stuff a monk gets?

My initial response is simply to start w/ an unarmed Swordsage (under Adaptation) and get Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick. Anything beyond that is really dependant on how far you need to take this.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Plain old Swordsage.

His 1st level feat is Improved Unarmed Strike; his 3rd level feat Deflect Arrow; his 6th level feat is Superior Unarmed Strike (Bo9S).

Cheers, -- N
 

Nyaricus

First Post
Damn.

I meant to say that I didn't want anything too... odd for this character. I like a lot of the Bo9S, but I'm trying to stay kinda clear of classes from that, MoI and the like. Sorry! I'll edit my OP...

Stream, I don't terribly care about those goodiebag things - I'm more trying to get down to what the monk does and does well.

cheers,
--N
 

geosapient

First Post
If you don't mind a little cheese...

Try a lawful evil bugbear (MM 3.5) for the class. The alignment is only *usually* chaotic evil so it gives some room to work.

Gives:
+4 str
+2 dex
+2 con
-2 cha

60'? darkvision
3d8 racial hit die
6x (2+int mod) skill points
2 auto laguages (common and goblin)
and possibly a few more bonuses

all for the low, low cost of one level.
 

humble minion

Adventurer
Not going to try to suggest a complete build or anything - i'll leave that to the experts! But a level or so dip into the Blade Dancer PrC (from OA) would be golden for something like this. Full BAB, plus ludicrous movement, Jump, and Tumble bonuses even at low levels. Worth it every time, though you'll need to be able to cast 1st-level arcane spells...

Boosting unarmed damage enough to rival a monk might be a bit trickier. Fighter plus all the PHBII specialisation feats are one option (though it'll hurt your saves), going Goliath for your race might be another (though I haven't got the book handy so I'm going from memory on this one).
 

blargney the second

blargney the minute's son
+1 to the swordsage suggestions. It's really quite straightforward - nothing particularly odd about it. *shrug*

Adding something new: Swift Hunter with Nifft and Stream's feat suggestions above would be able to play a brutal game of keep-away. Either go the Spring Attack route with the PHB2 additions and *maybe* Tempest, or grab lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian.
 
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Kat'

First Post
Pfff... Goliath Barbarian 4/Ranger 1/Dwarf Stoneblessed 3/Deepwarden 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Barbarian +6 and I'm not even trying. Carry a Monk's Belt and Boots of Haste. Stats should be Con>Str>Wis>Int>Dex>Cha. Your unarmed strikes while raging deal 3d6 damage plus the bonus from FotF plus your awesome Strength bonus, and you add your Wis bonus and twice your Con bonus to AC (but no Dex bonus). You got better skills, better hit points, better BAB, better grapple, and can haste yourself a few times per day for extra speed and attacks.
 
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Thanael

First Post
Minuses:
Lots of attacks via FoB, crappy BAB.
Have great speed, but needs a full-attack to get off a FoB
Lots of skills, crappy skill points (and no reason besides skills to have even a half-decent Int)
Damage is decent, if you hit (likely not happening)

Pluses:
Good saves.
Good AC via Wis + Dex.
Good Movement.

[...]

So, what I need for a monk:

Good unarmed damage!
Lots of attacks!
Good saves!
Good AC!
Decent base speed!
As for out-unarmed-fighting the Monk: Try a Streetfighter.

Fighter(or Thug variant)/Rogue multiclass with Impr. Unarmed and Impr. Feint. PrC into streetfighter. Reread sneak attack for unarmed option. Get TWF tree feats, to get more attacks. Other feats: Stunning Fist, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Impr. Disarm, Impr Trip, Impr. Grapple. Maybe later go into Reaping Mauler and get grappling feats from CW.

Has: lots of attacks, good damage if he hits esp after feinting. Good Ref and Fort. Good skills and skill points

Missing: something to enhance AC, speed, and Wil saves.

Or try a Kensai with unarmed as his weapon of choice.
 

glass

First Post
geosapient said:
Try a lawful evil bugbear (MM 3.5) for the class...all for the low, low cost of one level.
Well, one level of LA and three of craptacular racial hit dice, so it is really more like four levels.


glass.
 

glass

First Post
The 'no-Sordsages' thing is a bit of an odd stipulation, since the Swordsage is pretty much 'monk done right'. Still, with that in mind...

I'd second the Fighter for feats and bab: IUS is an obvious feat, as well as SUS -plus those feats that let you move and make multiple attacks (Bounding Assault, or some thing, IDNHMBIFOM). Boots can give the the enhanced move and haste for the extra attacks -and a monk's belt helps with unarmed attacks and AC too.

A few levels of rogue is nice for the extra damage, but how about Scout -synergises better with a mobile character, gives an AC bonus at higher levels, and fast movement (although sadly I don't think it stacks with boots).


glass.
 

szilard

First Post
A swift hunter with Two weapon fighting and improved (and superior) unarmed strike might be cool. You get mobility and you can alternate between a full attack with a mini-FoB due to two weapon fighting or skirmish damage. Ranger spells will help with some of the esoteric monk-things, particularly if you use the Spell Compendium. AC isn't bad when skirmishing. Saves are decent.

-Stuart
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
On swift hunter, you can also take a Ranger UA variant to get Barbarian fast movement, to add to the scout's, or hell. Just dip into Barbarian, too, take the Lion Totem variant for pounce, and shut down the "good full attack" argument for monks while you're at it, too.

Really though, the more I think about it, the more all this analysis seems pointless. A core Wildshaping Druid can cover most of this stuff good enough without much thought, unless the person's pedantic enough to cry foul at using natural attacks instead of unarmed. In which case...take IUS and Multiattack, pick a poncing form, and get your full attack unarmed + all your natural attacks as secondaries at -2 every round. There, win.
 

szilard

First Post
StreamOfTheSky said:
Really though, the more I think about it, the more all this analysis seems pointless. A core Wildshaping Druid can cover most of this stuff good enough without much thought, unless the person's pedantic enough to cry foul at using natural attacks instead of unarmed. In which case...take IUS and Multiattack, pick a poncing form, and get your full attack unarmed + all your natural attacks as secondaries at -2 every round. There, win.
Yeah, well, a druid is also capable of out-fightering the fighter, out-rangering the ranger, out-rogueing the rogue...

-Stuart
 

Folly

First Post
szilard said:
Yeah, well, a druid is also capable of out-fightering the fighter, out-rangering the ranger, out-rogueing the rogue...

-Stuart
While people say this, a druid can not achieve all of these in one build. By which I mean the druid does exactly what you said, of out performing those classes in every aspect that make that class.

Blanket statements are misleading and should never be used.
 

Corsair

First Post
Folly said:
While people say this, a druid can not achieve all of these in one build. By which I mean the druid does exactly what you said, of out performing those classes in every aspect that make that class.

Blanket statements are misleading and should never be used.

The fighter comment is pretty much always true. Animal companion + Wildshape = 2 warriors which are each individually almost as good as a fighter without even addressing buffs.

As for ranger, the druid spells embarrass the ranger spells, the animal companion is better, they get almost all the same skills, the druid is arguably a better melee warrior. So ranger's got a couple extra bonus feats and full BAB going for it, while the druid wins in pretty much every other category.
 

Darklone

Registered User
There are many great ranger spells in SpC that are pretty worthwhile compared to many druid abilities.

But in general, a druid simply needs to change his spell preparation and he can outperform many other classes. Except for the sneak attack smackdown rogue. And the bard. Druids can never beat bards. Except with sticks.
 

Folly

First Post
The specifics of what I said was do all those things at once. They are heavily reliant on their spells to achieve their different goals. If they are using their spells for one thing then they cannot use it for another.

A base wildshape druid doesn't hold a candle against a fighter, even with animal companion. It requires buffing spells and equipment investment to make them as good or better. This investment of resources prevents them from outshining other classes. Druids can do everything well, but have to choose what they do.
 

szilard

First Post
Folly said:
The specifics of what I said was do all those things at once. They are heavily reliant on their spells to achieve their different goals. If they are using their spells for one thing then they cannot use it for another.
You actually said a single build - a single build of Druid can do all of those things. Spells can be changed on a daily basis (and many of them don't require much in the way of spells).

...and, honestly, Druids get enough spells that they can do several of those things the same day.

-Stuart
 

Zelc

First Post
Darklone said:
But in general, a druid simply needs to change his spell preparation and he can outperform many other classes. Except for the sneak attack smackdown rogue.
Actually, there's a demon (Kevezu?) you can Shapeshift into that grants you +7d6 sneak attack.
 

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