Out-monking a Monk in 20 levels.

[Dagredhel]

My favorite is the "City Brawler" variant Barbarian. It is in Dragon 349, pg. 92.

(I didn't post this sooner because the original discussion was limited by sourc, but since several other posters went afield... )

Loses: medium armor, shields, martial weapons

Gains:

1st Level
Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike
Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting (with Unarmed Strike only)
Only take a –2 penalty on Attack rolls with Improvised weapons.

6th Level
Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (with Unarmed Strike only)

11th Level
Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (with Unarmed Strike only)

Depending on how you interpret the stricture in Unearthed Arcana about selecting only one variant at a time, this may also be combined with the Bear Totem Barbarian variant from that book to beef it up some more and make an unchallengable grappler by trading off fast movement and uncanny dodge.

 

[Artoomis]

Unless I missed something, no one has tackled ALL of:

Good unarmed damage!
Lots of attacks!
Good saves!
Good AC!
Decent base speed!

I wonder if it is possible to out-monk the monk when all five of those are considered.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, with the right feat & power choices, the various PsyWars get almost everything except the saves...

 

[RangerWickett]

Unless I missed something, no one has tackled ALL of:

Good unarmed damage!
Lots of attacks!
Good saves!
Good AC!
Decent base speed!

I wonder if it is possible to out-monk the monk when all five of those are considered.

Scout/Fighter/Dervish, using versatile unarmed strike to do slashing damage with his hands. You'll do good unarmed damage, you'll get lots of attacks while actually moving around (as opposed to running up and hitting a lot, then running to the next guy and hitting a lot). Your AC will be good. You just lose out on some saves.

And, to really point out the flaw in Monk, take 2 levels in it for all the good stuff, then ditch it. The problem isn't that monk is bad; it's that monk is bad after level 2.

 

[RangerWickett]

Here's the ultimate guide to making dervishes: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=629013

I personally would go Human Scout 2, Fighter 8, then Dervish 10. By level 10 you've got 10 feats, so:

Imp Unarmed Strike
Versatile Unarmed
Dodge
Mobility
Combat Expertise
Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Weapon Spec
Greater Focus
Melee Weapon Mastery
Power Attack

Beyond 10th level I'm not as clear what good options there are. You'd probably want to take Stunning Fist at some point, just because. The following suggestions are with minimal min-maxing, just off the top of my head.

Assuming you have just the typical gear (mighty fists +6, belt of Str +6, ioun stone +1 to attacks, monk's belt), and just typical starting stats (28-pt. Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8, 4 level-based stat bumps in Str), you end up with an attack bonus of +42.

(+18 base, +8 Str, +6 amulet, +2 greater focus, +2 melee weapon mastery, +1 ioun stone, +5 dervish bonus)

And you'd deal d8+23 (monk's belt, +6 amulet, +8 Str, +2 spec, +2 melee weapon mastery, +5 dervish).

For AC, you probably stuck you last stat boost into Dex, and you have the standard items (+5 amulet of natural armor [attached to your amulet of mighty fists], +5 ring, +8 bracers, +6 gloves of dex). This makes your AC 34.

(10 +5 Dex, +5 amulet, +5 ring, +8 bracers, +1 dervish)

You could probably do a lot to improve that.

 

[Artoomis]

So, if I am right, one can equal or exceed the monk on one or more of the OP's required five characteristics, but not all five.

True?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, AFAIK, only the Monk (and its variants) have all good saves, so yes.

 

[Artoomis]

Well, AFAIK, only the Monk (and its variants) have all good saves, so yes.

Well, then, given the rules at the beginning of this discussion, one cannot out-monk the monk because the rules stated it had to be done as equal to or better than the monk in all five categories. At least that's the way I understood it to be.

 

[blargney the second]

Again, swordsage to the rescue. Good Refl and good Will. Slap on a couple levels of fighter for Fort, and you're good to go.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think the challenge would be satisfied if the OP's PC out-does the monk in enough categories by a big enough margin.