Out-monking a Monk in 20 levels.

[Nyaricus]

So, here's a little challenge my buddy gave me - he wants me to make a character, specifically a fist-fighter, to out-monk his monk. He's still not convinced that even without VoP that the monk is an incredibly short-changed, rather crappy class.

Minuses:
Lots of attacks via FoB, crappy BAB.
Have great speed, but needs a full-attack to get off a FoB
Lots of skills, crappy skill points (and no reason besides skills to have even a half-decent Int)
Damage is decent, if you hit (likely not happening)

Pluses:
Good saves.
Good AC via Wis + Dex.
Good Movement.


So, how can I out-monk his monk class?

Book allowed: all WotC 3.5 plus any 3.0 that are not otherwise updated (ex: OA is allowed, since that wasn't updated to 3.5). I own most of them, and I just got the MIC the other day (which I expect to really help me) so splat book this bad-boy up! I'm trying to stay away from base classes from Bo9S or MoI or the like, so please keep that in mind.

So, what I need for a monk:

Good unarmed damage!
Lots of attacks!
Good saves!
Good AC!
Decent base speed!

I want to use LA +0 or +1 races only. Nothing more, thanks!

Any thoughts/idea spring to mind?


thanks!
--N

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Does it need to have good SR, too? And poison immunity? And all the other grab bag stuff a monk gets?

My initial response is simply to start w/ an unarmed Swordsage (under Adaptation) and get Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick. Anything beyond that is really dependant on how far you need to take this.

 

[Nifft]

Plain old Swordsage.

His 1st level feat is Improved Unarmed Strike; his 3rd level feat Deflect Arrow; his 6th level feat is Superior Unarmed Strike (Bo9S).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nyaricus]

Damn.

I meant to say that I didn't want anything too... odd for this character. I like a lot of the Bo9S, but I'm trying to stay kinda clear of classes from that, MoI and the like. Sorry! I'll edit my OP...

Stream, I don't terribly care about those goodiebag things - I'm more trying to get down to what the monk does and does well.

cheers,
--N

 

[geosapient]

If you don't mind a little cheese...

Try a lawful evil bugbear (MM 3.5) for the class. The alignment is only *usually* chaotic evil so it gives some room to work.

Gives:
+4 str
+2 dex
+2 con
-2 cha

60'? darkvision
3d8 racial hit die
6x (2+int mod) skill points
2 auto laguages (common and goblin)
and possibly a few more bonuses

all for the low, low cost of one level.

 

[humble minion]

Not going to try to suggest a complete build or anything - i'll leave that to the experts! But a level or so dip into the Blade Dancer PrC (from OA) would be golden for something like this. Full BAB, plus ludicrous movement, Jump, and Tumble bonuses even at low levels. Worth it every time, though you'll need to be able to cast 1st-level arcane spells...

Boosting unarmed damage enough to rival a monk might be a bit trickier. Fighter plus all the PHBII specialisation feats are one option (though it'll hurt your saves), going Goliath for your race might be another (though I haven't got the book handy so I'm going from memory on this one).

 

[blargney the second]

+1 to the swordsage suggestions. It's really quite straightforward - nothing particularly odd about it. *shrug*

Adding something new: Swift Hunter with Nifft and Stream's feat suggestions above would be able to play a brutal game of keep-away. Either go the Spring Attack route with the PHB2 additions and *maybe* Tempest, or grab lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian.

 

[Kat']

Pfff... Goliath Barbarian 4/Ranger 1/Dwarf Stoneblessed 3/Deepwarden 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Barbarian +6 and I'm not even trying. Carry a Monk's Belt and Boots of Haste. Stats should be Con>Str>Wis>Int>Dex>Cha. Your unarmed strikes while raging deal 3d6 damage plus the bonus from FotF plus your awesome Strength bonus, and you add your Wis bonus and twice your Con bonus to AC (but no Dex bonus). You got better skills, better hit points, better BAB, better grapple, and can haste yourself a few times per day for extra speed and attacks.

 

[Thanael]

Minuses:
Lots of attacks via FoB, crappy BAB.
Have great speed, but needs a full-attack to get off a FoB
Lots of skills, crappy skill points (and no reason besides skills to have even a half-decent Int)
Damage is decent, if you hit (likely not happening)

Pluses:
Good saves.
Good AC via Wis + Dex.
Good Movement.

[...]

So, what I need for a monk:

Good unarmed damage!
Lots of attacks!
Good saves!
Good AC!
Decent base speed!

As for out-unarmed-fighting the Monk: Try a Streetfighter.

Fighter(or Thug variant)/Rogue multiclass with Impr. Unarmed and Impr. Feint. PrC into streetfighter. Reread sneak attack for unarmed option. Get TWF tree feats, to get more attacks. Other feats: Stunning Fist, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Impr. Disarm, Impr Trip, Impr. Grapple. Maybe later go into Reaping Mauler and get grappling feats from CW.

Has: lots of attacks, good damage if he hits esp after feinting. Good Ref and Fort. Good skills and skill points

Missing: something to enhance AC, speed, and Wil saves.

Or try a Kensai with unarmed as his weapon of choice.

 

[glass]

Try a lawful evil bugbear (MM 3.5) for the class...all for the low, low cost of one level.

Well, one level of LA and three of craptacular racial hit dice, so it is really more like four levels.


glass.