Out of combat balance - skills trained and known

[Garthanos]

Well, like most 'skills' in 4e it is not very narrowly defined. I take it to be a general aptitude and interest in/experience at building or creating functional things. That would include constructing buildings and other large engineering works (IE civil engineering) as well as mechanical engineering.

I would consider it to be applicable to any task where a PC is trying to build something, answer some question about a built thing or the construction of a thing, or construct or repair some sort of mechanical contrivance (in a fairly loose way, so I would consider fixing a door would be a reasonable application of Engineering, though a PC with a background in carpentry might be better suited to the work).

I consider it to replace dungeoneering in all of its role of understanding mines and other 'underground structures'. Since many of us also applied it to similar above-ground scenarios as well (for lack of a better alternative) I think that it is almost just a relabeling of that aspect of Dungeoneering. Obviously the "underground nature expert" aspect can be subsumed under Nature itself, which to me is not really a problem (again, Nature indicating a knack for 'natural things' then it seems like a perfectly good thing to apply underground in that role).

I think fortifications and siege engines should be mentioned explicitly in the definition of this I think.


Also i think its building larger scale things .... smaller clock work construction if there is a heroic skill which covers it is usually a nod to thievery.

 

[Garthanos]

If we introduced a Clockwork Manipulations (Dex) and Engineering(Int).

Then 4 attributes have 4 skills.

But how different is clockwork manipulations from lock picking?

 

[Garthanos]

I think I should have called this thread balancing characters outside of combat in 4e

You might allow Endurance and Athletics to be used 4 times as often in a Skill Challenges as the other attributes. That seems like a lot more? So with that Strength or Constitution focused characters can have the same number of high chance successes in spite of having fewer skills applicable to their main attribute.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think fortifications and siege engines should be mentioned explicitly in the definition of this I think.


Also i think its building larger scale things .... smaller clock work construction if there is a heroic skill which covers it is usually a nod to thievery.

If we introduced a Clockwork Manipulations (Dex) and Engineering(Int).

Then 4 attributes have 4 skills.

But how different is clockwork manipulations from lock picking?

Yes, fortifications and siege engines are certainly the sorts of things you'd use Engineering for, amongst others. In terms of what you put into which skill, I'm more worried about 'propensities' or 'knacks' and how the skill distribution indicates approaches to problem solving than to 'logic' of what things people learn as specific topics. So, yeah, maybe clockwork and building castles ARE different. Maybe even in terms of approaches to doing things. Thievery could work, it certainly has in the past.

I don't think clockwork manipulation and lock picking are really very different. Though 'breaking into things' and 'making machines and devices' are rather different approaches. Anyway, Gygax had Find/Remove Traps and Pick Locks as separate thief skills (not that this means much, but so it is).

 

[Garthanos]

Yes, fortifications and siege engines are certainly the sorts of things you'd use Engineering for, amongst others. In terms of what you put into which skill, I'm more worried about 'propensities' or 'knacks' and how the skill distribution indicates approaches to problem solving than to 'logic' of what things people learn as specific topics. So, yeah, maybe clockwork and building castles ARE different. Maybe even in terms of approaches to doing things. Thievery could work, it certainly has in the past.

Definitely feel distinct. Although Leonardo d'Vinci certainly had both.

I don't think clockwork manipulation and lock picking are really very different. Though 'breaking into things' and 'making machines and devices' are rather different approaches. Anyway, Gygax had Find/Remove Traps and Pick Locks as separate thief skills (not that this means much, but so it is).

And Sleight of Hand could be more appropriately a stealth skill.

 

[Garthanos]

Just for a comparison

In HERO for agility skills they have

• Acrobatics - same skill
• Breakfall - subsumed in acrobatics
• Climbing - subsumed in athletics
• Combat Driving - combat riding feat
• Combat Piloting - more combat riding not differentiated
• Contortionist - subsumed in acrobatics
• Fast Draw ? independent ability allowing drawing a weapon as part of the Attack or drawing and sheathing as one minor action.
• Lockpicking - subsumed in thieving
• Riding - subsumed in nature usually but see combat riding feat
• Sleight Of Hand- subsumed in thieving
• Stealth - same skill
• Teamwork - not sure how this relates it is a combat teamwork bonus wrt coordinating with others enabling maybe simultaneous attacks? or something I thought HERO was supposed to be clear @Tony Vargas

 

[Tony Vargas]

Hero is a tragic example of skill proliferation creating incompetence. Even as powers were consolidated & rationalized in the 4th ed BBB/HSR to create a true universal system, skills from the other hero games and open-ended background skills from Champions II made a mess of tge system.

Steve Long's tenure has only made it worse.

 

[Garthanos]

Hero is a tragic example of skill proliferation creating incompetence. Even as powers were consolidated & rationalized in the 4th ed BBB/HSR to create a true universal system, skills from the other hero games and open-ended background skills from Champions II made a mess of tge system.

Steve Long's tenure has only made it worse.

I am very much liking the Engineering as a replacement for Dungeoneering. Adding a Dex skill I do not think will be going down that path.

That looking for more Con skills and Str skills is probably a foregone bust. But another Dex skill may be viable. It could give a nice consistency for skill stats that way.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, like most 'skills' in 4e it is not very narrowly defined. I take it to be a general aptitude and interest in/experience at building or creating functional things. That would include constructing buildings and other large engineering works (IE civil engineering) as well as mechanical engineering.

I would consider it to be applicable to any task where a PC is trying to build something, answer some question about a built thing or the construction of a thing, or construct or repair some sort of mechanical contrivance (in a fairly loose way, so I would consider fixing a door would be a reasonable application of Engineering, though a PC with a background in carpentry might be better suited to the work).

I consider it to replace dungeoneering in all of its role of understanding mines and other 'underground structures'. Since many of us also applied it to similar above-ground scenarios as well (for lack of a better alternative) I think that it is almost just a relabeling of that aspect of Dungeoneering. Obviously the "underground nature expert" aspect can be subsumed under Nature itself, which to me is not really a problem (again, Nature indicating a knack for 'natural things' then it seems like a perfectly good thing to apply underground in that role).

Given the nature of PCs tearing things down and finding their vulnerabilities might be more common than construction

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, PCs might like to 'engineer destruction', yes.