"Over the Top" Spells

[Paul_Klein]

Anyone else hate Fly? Am I the only one who thinks the idea of people flying around ridiculous?

Anyone else the "summon a magical feast, shelter (complete with beds and dressers and tables and chairs), etc..."?

See where I'm going with this?

I'm not saying I like low-magic, but I AM saying that magic, in my opinion, is WAY to over the top in D&D.

Food should either be bought or foraged. Heroes should not be flying around, fighting just as well (in fact, better) as they do on the ground, simply becuase Wizards can make them.

I don't have time to fully elaborate, but I think my point is clear. Is anyone with me on this one?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that "Alter Self" allowed a character to fly at a lower level than the Fly spell.

It's not so much the "over the topness", it's when they sneak up and grab you from behind with it ...

 

[Xarlen]

Not really.

The magic has a lot of tradition. If there was no Fly, then where would you get Witches flying on brooms? Magical carpets? The ever present 'Evil Magical Dude levitating too feet off the ground, then floating very fast towards you'?

The summon feasting is much like Jesus creating food. It's just a Thing they're known to do.

I don't think Fly is ridiculous. There are some situations where you Need it. But you can limit the usages, to have it happen only Once in a great while, to up the mystique of it.

 

[Paradoxish]

I don't think Fly is ridiculous. There are some situations where you Need it. But you can limit the usages, to have it happen only Once in a great while, to up the mystique of it.

There really aren't any situations where you "need" to fly. As the DM, all it takes is carefully managing the adventures so there's no great need for spells that you find over-the-top. Personally, I am bothered by fly, because it provides an advantage in combat that's impossible to overcome without going equally over-the-top. I may be the only one that feels this way, but when a certain spell requires the DM to fall back on outrageous tactics to maintain a certain challenge level the spell is probably over-powered.

As a general rule of thumb, any spell that allows a spellcaster to simply fly up in the air, bombard a fighter of equal level with spells, and kill him without ever taking a risk is probably way over-the-top.

And as far as your examples are concerned, it's easy to justify those situations without resorting to over-the-top spells. A witch uses her broom to fly. Same goes for magical carpets. And let's not forget that levitating two feet off of the ground is very different from flying a hundred feet into the air and tossing fireballs.

 

[Xarlen]

Yes, but when you're levitating, you can't go Forward. So sure, oo, wow, I can levitate 3 feet off the ground, but now I'm *stuck* here. And with Levitate you can do the same 50 feet in the air and bombard.

And, yes, there are situations where Fly is a lot better then the alternatives. Look at the Remorhaz. Cr 7. You get in melee with it, you DIE. And since they have Burrow, and are fast suckers, you can't exactly RUN from them. But if you get in the air, it can't touch you.

And, there are a lot of simple ways to take care fo a flying wizard. Um, ranged attacks? A nicely placed Dispel? Infact, I'm at the moment engineering a battle with an enemy spellcaster who will deal with the party's flying wizard.

 

[Tewligan]

I'm with ya, Paul. It can give a little too much superhero silliness to the game when fighters are regularly swooping around like sword-swinging kites. What bugs me, however, is the standard combo of fly+invisibility so the mage can float around unseen and unthreatened until he takes a potshot at an unsuspecting baddie with a lightning bolt. It probably wouldn't bother me so much if it weren't so damn common - apparently, it's one of the earliest rules drummed into apprentice wizards' heads.

 

[MissWashuu]

**dream like visual**

I see a cavern, 80 ft tall in the certer, 120 ft diameter. A grand melee is going to take place here. There are many orc's or other baddies. There are wood dwelling's with stone roofs, some pathway's are covered with stone as well. The entrance to the cavern is 100 feet from the closest baddie who is shooting arrows at the PC's entering the cavern. Mage (or sorcerer) cast "Fly" on the fighter, so now the big bad fighter is flying around and right up to the orc baddie. (remember that "fly" is not his natural form of movement so "run" actions and "charging" actions are not permitted while "flying") So said fighter DOUBLE MOVES to the baddies meaning he cannot attack. Well this is where things start to look up, cause what should drop form the cieling but PIERCERS!!! YEA!!!!fly, fly all you want... but keep moving, don't stop.

bwahahaahhahahahaha

*sigh* kinda brings a tear to yur eye don't it ?

 

[Paradoxish]

And, there are a lot of simple ways to take care fo a flying wizard. Um, ranged attacks? A nicely placed Dispel? Infact, I'm at the moment engineering a battle with an enemy spellcaster who will deal with the party's flying wizard.

I think you're missing the point. I don't want to "deal" with the party's flying wizard. It's simply no fun to play your character when the DM is ready with a countermove for every spell that you have. Here's my rationale:

If it's so common for spellcasters to fly around while invisible than almost every enemy spellcaster can be expected to either do the same or have a way to immediatly counter it. That alone makes for an over-the-top, possibly broken, combination. It means that every enemy spellcaster the party encounters will either use the same trick against them or have a way to stop them from using it, so why even bother allowing it in the first place? And that's only looking at it from a logical point of view, from a 'flavor' perspective it just doesn't make sense if every damn wizard or sorcerer is zooming around the sky.

As a DM, I'm of the opinion that I need to try to keep the game fun for everyone who's playing (myself included). It's no fun for my players or for me if every adventure results in either using the same tricks over and over again or, alternately, letting the players walk all over everything that should be challenging. And, of course, there are a lot of people who feel that adding superhero-esque elements like this take away a lot of the feel of the game.

EDIT: MissWashuu brings up a really good point, and carefully planned epic battles with lots of surprises are always fun, but that still goes back to what I was saying earlier. The party shouldn't be expected to just blow their way through every encounter besides those that you spent loads of time planning. By that same logic, it shouldn't take all of those surprises to make your players think - they should be just as afraid of an intelligent enemy that uses good tactics as one that is carefully developed to beat them.

 

[Oni]

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that "Alter Self" allowed a character to fly at a lower level than the Fly spell.

Personally I would require a concentration check for violent motion (flapping wings) for any spell casting made while flying via Alter Self, don't have to worry about undermining fly that way.

 

[Xarlen]

I don't like that logic.

If every enemy is going to come up with a way to counter-act it or repeat it, they're going to do that with Any adversary. He's a mage. He's going to cast fireball. or magic missile. They're either going to repeat that, or they're going to counter-react it with Shield, or fire resistance, or hitting the mage with everything they possibly can.

It seems to me that PCs think 'Enemy mage, prepare for fireballing and magic missiles'.

You're better off just yoinking the entire offensive spell list. And defensive too, if Invisibility and Fly are breaking your game.