"Over the Top" Spells

[Oni]

Actually, Gandalf never wields great magics in LotR (or hobbit). A couple of flashes or burning sticks here and there. Nothing big. He seems to be a more of a sage type of guy. (slash 3rd level wizard )

What about his battle with the black riders at weathertop, the fight with the wargs before descending into moria, that battle with the balrog?

 

[ashockney]

Easy and available, if you're level 17+ and willing to waste 5000 xp a pop.

In my campaigns (I've run two to 20th level, and we're on our way with a third), getting 17th level isn't an obstacle.

5000 xp a pop is no slouch. You can also get wishes from rings, swords of luck, decks of many things, etc.

Getting the spell now is simply a matter of "choosing" it when you are of the appropriate level.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying wish is an "easy" spell. I'm simply saying it is extremely viable to consider that most people dealing with things of that level (this isn't taking "EPIC" into consideration) will have access to WISH for things they need, and completely avoid the time and other restraints that exist in reality.

In other words, how would that affect the political structure of the world if every major "superpower" had ready access to "wish".

 

[hong]

It seems that more players approach the game like a video game which must be "defeated" by any means possible, rather than approaching it like a piece of interactive, heroic fiction.

The puzzle-solving approach is an entirely valid style of play.

 

[hong]

What about his battle with the black riders at weathertop, the fight with the wargs before descending into moria, that battle with the balrog?

That was Gandalf's Plot Immunity at work. Notice how the balrog's brane explodiated, causing him to charge right up to Gandy on the bridge instead of standing off and using his whip at a distance. Hey, if it works for Indy, it should have worked double for a 20-foot-tall, flaming demon with arms as thick as tree trunks.

As for Gandalf, what he REALLY needs is a Dragon Slave, or maybe a Giga Slave. Cause he just doesn't cut it when it comes to epic property destruction, mang.

 

[Jolly Giant]

Shall there be no end to these threads?!? Yes, once you reach mid-level the game changes and it get's tougher on the DM (believe me, I know!). Yes, magic get's really powerful. Yes, a lot of things that use'd to be obstacles and threats to PCs cease to be a problem. There is no longer a need for jumping, climbing or swimming. Great distance is no longer a factor. Scavenging for food? That's for losers...

My question is: lSo what?!?

Isn't it time by then to start introducing new obstacles and new threats? Shouldn't the game change as it progress? If you like everything to stay the way it is, stop giving out XP, leave the PCs at level 1 forever! If a 10th lvl fighter has no way of dealing with flying enemies, he needs to find himself a new game! One with no magic, no dragons, no technology and preferably no birds...

Remember that the PCs enemies probably also know of the existence of magic, and if they have a INT-score of more than 2 they will have taken some precaucions. The argument saying this is denying the PCs the use of their abilities just doesn't hold up. Having a defence against magic is an absolute must at mid/high levels and the evil guys should know this as well as the PCs. I don't hear any fighters complaining about his enemies having armors and shields, why should the spellcasters complain about magic defences? The higher the level of the game, the more important it gets. To an epic level fighter, his Mantle of Spellresistance is just as essential than his sword and armor...

I'm not denying the existence of 'broken' spells (Harm being an obvious example), I'm just saying that if a DM can't handle high-level magic users, the problem is not with the game...

Oops, I probably insulted a lot of people just know... Oh well, it had to be said!

 

[hong]

To an epic level fighter, his Mantle of Spellresistance is just as essential than his sword and armor...

Hmm... I'd have said his winged boots (with speed added on), ring of evasion, ring of nine lives, cloak of dimension door, +5 amulet of resistance and +6 headband of Wisdom, myself.

 

[Jolly Giant]

Hmm... I'd have said his winged boots (with speed added on), ring of evasion, ring of nine lives, cloak of dimension door, +5 amulet of resistance and +6 headband of Wisdom, myself.

So basically, you see my point and agree then? Phew, I was afraid I was gonna get nothing but abuse and greivances for this post...

 

[Victim]

I agree with hong. For normal play, SR items are overpriced. But resistance bonuses and luckstones aren't that expensive. In Epic play, however, SR becomes really cheap.

 

[LostSoul]

My question is: lSo what?!?

Because it implies a specific setting that some people are not comfortable with.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Someone suggested the setting where wizards were capable of great things, but just didn't.

What if you simply said that every magic user (meaning anyone or anything who uses su or sp abilities) could detect the range and direction of a spell being cast within a range of (spell level^10) feet or something? That way level 1 spells are all but undetectable, while a level 3 spell is detectable within 19 miles, and a level 9 spell would be detectable the world over (at some 119 thousand miles).

I'd probably also suggest making some sort of spot or listen test.

The interesting thing is that that particular pair of rules would make rangers (magic users who get a good spot skill) the ultimate mage-hunters.

The only problem I can see: It makes many of the more subtle spells completely useless (suggestion for example). One idea would be to simply add the tag [subtle] to these spells, and then say that their "alert radius" is that of a much lower level spell (half level, or level - 2 or something). The other possibility would be to introduce a new metamagic with that very effect (for every +1 level increase, treat this spells alert radius as if it was one level lower).