Overestimating Party Strength

[The_Old_one]

I seem to be having the opposite problem lately. I am running a SL campaign for 4 PCs of 4th to 8th level, and so far pretty much everythin they face has gone down screaming. At 5th level, they tore apart an Osyluth, last week it was a CR 7 Despair (From CC 2) and just before that a CR 10 Lich (The Simulacrum of the campaign villain). The Lich managed to drop the party Barbarian with a Phantasmal Killer- then he just fell apart in a pathetic series of fumbled Concentration checks and missed touch attacks.
At present it seems that only EL 8+ encounters can even faze the party, and this is with only two magic weapons (A +2 Holy longsword, and a +1 Hobgoblin-Bane longsword) and a wand of Fireball (5th level) between the party. Is it just me, or is anybody else finding that PCs over 5th level are a hell of a lot tougher than in 2E?

 

[Doc_Subtlety]

All:
Hehehe...I once accidentally toasted a low level party with Ghouls. Raise your hand if you've done that.

(The Ghoul CR is just plain wrong.)

Old One:

Is it just me, or is anybody else finding that PCs over 5th level are a hell of a lot tougher than in 2E?

Levels mean more in 3E, and players have more options.
*shrugs*
You just need some time to adjust.

A couple of things:
- An Osyluth has a lot of good spell like abilities. Which ones did you use, and how?

- A Lich should usually have minions. A spellcaster - even an undead spellcaster - needs some cannon fodder between it and the party fighters, or it'll get hacked up.

- Have you considered raising the hp on monsters you use? (I don't anymore, but it was good when I was starting out.)

 

[EOL]

I did it with some basilisks the EL was at or below their level and the basilisks should have been easy to kill but with everyone making 5 fortitude saves a round the odds were working against them. That's when I realized that the Difficulty of the encounter increased exponentially rather than linearly as I added more basilisks....

 

[Nightfall]

Well, the party along with six 2nd level warriors and 1 6th level captain, are going to Mullis. The rogue, Rannos, scouting ahead spots a pack of the Proud, some odd 25 strong. With some urging from an overconfident captain, they decide to attack.

25 Proud MIGHT have been a bit much Joe. They DO after all have druidic powers along with their spell like abilities. It also might have helped IF their captian was an actual FIGHTER. Still that happens in the Scarred Lands. Perhaps it would have worked better if the Proud had some dire lions and/or plague cats working with them.

Just some ideas Joe.

Old One: Try using like a couple vermin, like Bloodflies and Bloodmoths. Also try using Ferals in combination with a few Leonine demons. Finally my personal favorite, dopplegangers and Dark Wombs, make for some fun enouncter along with some Narleths. Also play to your strengths, have spells casted BEFORE combat, like Stone Skin, Shield, Resistance, and others. Plus don't be afriad to use wands that use "Render the Soverign Soul" to help you spell casters gain more power.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Re: Re: Overestimating Party Strength

25 Proud MIGHT have been a bit much Joe. They DO after all have druidic powers along with their spell like abilities. It also might have helped IF their captian was an actual FIGHTER. Still that happens in the Scarred Lands. Perhaps it would have worked better if the Proud had some dire lions and/or plague cats working with them.


Oh yeah, no might about it. I was going to have the Proud route after some of 'em fell but the party's shaman using no healing, the monk not attacking for a few rounds, and one of the barbarians having to move back a square every round because he had a long spear didnt' help odds either.


Just some ideas Joe.

Old One: Try using like a couple vermin, like Bloodflies and Bloodmoths. Also try using Ferals in combination with a few Leonine demons. Finally my personal favorite, dopplegangers and Dark Wombs, make for some fun enouncter along with some Narleths. Also play to your strengths, have spells casted BEFORE combat, like Stone Skin, Shield, Resistance, and others. Plus don't be afriad to use wands that use "Render the Soverign Soul" to help you spell casters gain more power.

The group was somewhat good about this. The barbarian sorcerer had armor and shield up but once your enraged, you really don't think about the positioning of your shield. The only ones who really did damage were the rogue/fighter who keept flanking 'em with one of the other warriors.

Lack of spellcasters was definately a big problem here.

So far the party has gone up against a lot of human foes like rogues, warriors, thugs (from T&T I) and even a barbarian or two. They've fought some of the Call of Cthulhu monsters and came out on top as well (big conspiracy thing going on in Mithril...with the Old Ones who in my campaign, predate the Titans.)

One of the sidetracks is a little place called the Black Pit, an Inn that moves around in Shackletown where people come to fight in a dug out pit and life is cheap. I figure every now and again it'll help 'em build up their XP when they're close to making another level.
Thanks for the ideas amigo.

 

[The Furious Puffin]

I keep doing this all the time

Generally it happens when the players, with the correct "tactics" should be able to knock over the fight.

However, for whatever reason the party completly fails to work as a team, and everyone ends up the creek without a paddle, or indeed a boat.

A few dismal rolls later, and I am trying to avoid having a Total party kill from a couple of muggers.

Bad luck can also cause this problem, espcially in smaller parties.

For some time I was Dming parties of 2/3 guys. in one battle one player managed to roll 7 ones on 9 to hit rolls. When that happens the party effectively has one less memember. When the party only has 2 guys in the first place, this is a disaster.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Man, I'm glad to see that bad dice rolls have killed a party or two in their time.

I'd also like to add that the Proud did take quite a beating and wound up leaving with the bodies of the dead warriors and over half the party.

Another thing that the party didn't do. Disagree with the captain or try to run when they saw that things weren't going their way.

Hey, this keeps up and pretty soon I'm be thinking that I underestimated the party's strength and that they're just trying to get some easy xps from me!

 

[Victim]

One important thing to remember is that running away can be next to impossible. A dwarf, small race, or plate armored tank means that the group can only run from a handful of monsters. A plate armored dward, gnome, or halfling essentially means that conventional escape is impossible.

Also, disengaging from melee can leave you wide open to a charge from your opponent, unless the group has enough people to set up good flanking positions or a battle line.

It generally takes careful preparations, or very favorable circumstances to sucessfully disengage from close combat.

 

[Loric]

I started out having the opposite problem and had to max out the HPs for all the encounters, then I began underestimating, the major encounters all always a cake walk for my party, but the minor encounters seems to maul them. Stirges, I love those little guys...

Loric

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

For other good hints on making dangerous encounters for your PCs I suggest the article Tag Team Terror in Dragon 288 . Grimlocks and basilisks are a horror and make a lot of sense working together.

I've used the strategy of combining very different monsters many times - it always works like a blast because PCs have a difficult time countering many different attack strategies at the same time.