Oversized Reach Weapons

[mvincent]

I think the FAQ suggests a change that the individual DM may find to his taste.

But in a "by the book game", you would expect them to follow the literal text in the PHB? I'm just trying to understand you Hyp. You've got excellent rules skills, but this method seems like a flaw in your (otherwise above average) interpretive abilities. Exploring strict literalism can be interesting, but holding firm to it (in the face of RAI) seems... odd.

So I'm unsure: do you say these things for fun, or do you genuinely hold to it? If it's the former, it seems like it could lead people astray (as you are not using an ironic wink or somesuch). If it's the latter, well... I'd like to explore my concerns there in IM.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But in a "by the book game", you would expect them to follow the literal text in the PHB?

Isn't that the definition of 'by the book'? The book says X, therefore we do X?

-Hyp.

 

[frankthedm]

But in a "by the book game", you would expect them to follow the literal text in the PHB? I'm just trying to understand you Hyp. You've got excellent rules skills, but this method seems like a flaw in your (otherwise above average) interpretive abilities. Exploring strict literalism can be interesting, but holding firm to it (in the face of RAI) seems... odd.

It makes perfect sense if my suspicions are correct.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But that is not really that big of an issue since powerful build, the better of the two "wield a larger weapon abilities" specify no additional reach is gained.

" However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size."

emphasis mine...

This language doesn't apply the weapon- it applies to the creature's reach, as in despite being able to wield size L weapons, the M creature with Powerful Build does not have the 10' reach of a L creature.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

With some further rumination, I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with Hyp's initial interpretation of the RAW. Reach weapons have a size of their own...but its implied rather than explicitly stated.

The PHB's rules on reach weapon state that reach weapons "double(s) the wielder's natural reach (PHB p113)."

It also says:

The measure of how much effore it takes to use a weapon...is altered by one step for each size cateogry of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed...a small greatsword...is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, or a light weapon for a Large creature. Conversely, a Large Dagger...is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, or a two-handed weapon for a Small creature. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all. (PHB p113)

IOW, under those rules, a M creature cannot even wield a size L 2hd weapon at all. We all know this.

Like some other feats & racial abilities, Monkey Grip and Powerful Build are loopholes to a PHB rule, so were not considered by the original designers. They included several examples of creatures wielding inappropriately sized weapons in the text on p113 (which I edited out), but since no creature could wield an oversized reach weapon, they didn't consider that as a factor in wording the rules.

Both Monkey Grip and Powerful Build allow a creature to wield a weapon that is one size category larger than themselves, and to do so in a way that doesn't change the amount of effort required to wield the weapon. An oversized light, one-handed, or two handed weapon is wielded as if the wielder was of the same size class of the weapon.

Thus, a Large creature wields a 2 handed reach weapon and gains 10' of reach, defined for him as double his natural reach (here, 10'). A size M creature normally couldn't use that weapon, but can because he has Monkey Grip or Powerful Build. He wields the weapon as if he were size Large, gaining 10' of reach...but since his natural reach is 5' as opposed to 10', he can strike out 10'-15' feet as opposed to the 15'-20' of the Large creature. He still can't use it to attack creatures in his natural reach (here, 5').

Of course, since its my PC and not my campaign, I'm not the final arbiter of how it will work in this case.

However, that's the way I'm going to run it IMC from now on.

 

[phindar]

That's the way I prefer to run it as well. It sweetens the deal for Monkey Grip, for one thing. And I can buy the imagery. If a Medium polearm is about 10' long and a Large polearm is about 20' long, I can see the latter imparting more Reach to the wielder.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A size M creature normally couldn't use that weapon, but can because he has Monkey Grip or Powerful Build. He wields the weapon as if he were size Large...

Monkey Grip is more like wielding the weapon as if it were size Medium. If it caused the wielder to be considered Large, it would work for Huge weapons as well; the feat changes how the weapon is treated, rather than how the wielder is treated.

-Hyp.

 

[frankthedm]

That's the way I prefer to run it as well. It sweetens the deal for Monkey Grip, for one thing. And I can buy the imagery. If a Medium polearm is about 10' long and a Large polearm is about 20' long, I can see the latter imparting more Reach to the wielder.

Do you do the same for centaurs? Centaurs weild large weapons, but as large long creaures, they only have 5' reach / 10' with a reach weapon.

 

[phindar]

We've had the centaur discussion before. The Centaur Exception (as I'll be calling it today) I don't mind, because they have the torso of a Medium-sized human and the body of a horse, which is Large long. Anything a centaur wields or wears from the waist up is sized for a Medium human, anything from the waist down is barding. (I also think centaurs should get double damage on a charge with a lance, same as a horse and rider, to simulate the junk in the trunk factor.) A centaur has the same reach as human with a polearm, because they're wielding the same polearm.

Its easier to make an exception for the centaur and treat them as a Medium and a Large creature stuck together, because it doesn't come up all that much.

 

[Hypersmurf]

We've had the centaur discussion before. The Centaur Exception (as I'll be calling it today) I don't mind, because they have the torso of a Medium-sized human and the body of a horse, which is Large long. Anything a centaur wields or wears from the waist up is sized for a Medium human, anything from the waist down is barding. (I also think centaurs should get double damage on a charge with a lance, same as a horse and rider, to simulate the junk in the trunk factor.) A centaur has the same reach as human with a polearm, because they're wielding the same polearm.

From the Monster Manual:
Attack: Longsword +7 melee (2d6+6/19–20) or composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) +5 ranged (2d6+4/x3)

The centaur's not wielding a human longsword and a human longbow. He's wielding an ogre longsword and an ogre longbow.

Give him an appropriately-sized longspear, and it's the one you took off the hill giant, not the one you took off the hobgoblin.

-Hyp.