Oversized Reach Weapons

[Dannyalcatraz]

Most reach weapons described in this chapter double the wielder's natural reach, meaning the typicial Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a crature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away (PHB p113)

It doesn't to me..."appropriately sized" isn't a stipulation, it a distinction. All its saying is that a Large creature using a Large reach weapon has a different reach than a Medium sized creature using a Medium sized reach weapon, but with better word economy.

Hmm? To me it says that a Large creature using a Large reach weapon has a different reach than a Large creature using a Medium reach weapon. It doesn't comment on Medium creatures at all!

Read that section again- it is clearly a pair of comparative sentences showing that larger creatures get more reach than their smaller counterparts (not comparing large to large) and denoting that, just like in the medium creatures mentioned before, a large weapon cannot usually be used within the arc of the creature's natural reach (and specifically spelling out that this is 10' for a L creature as opposed to 5' for a S/M creature).

A Small or Medium wielder with Monkey Grip or Powerful Build is not "typical"- he can wield weapons larger than typical S or M critters can wield, in this case, a reach weapon designed for a creature one size larger than itself.

Certainly. And his space and reach remains that of a creature of his normal size category.

No, because he is not typical.

If you can read "appropriately sized" as being some kind of attribute/restriction on creatures, then why don't you then see "typical" as an exception?

While we're at it...am I correct in assuming you'd find that a Tiny Creature using a 2 hd reach weapon sized for a Small Creature (with Monkey Grip/Powerful Build) or a a Fine creature using a DMG Kusarigama sized for a Small creature (as a 2hd weapon) would get no reach?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Read that section again- it is clearly a pair of comparative sentences showing that larger creatures get more reach than their smaller counterparts (not comparing large to large) and denoting that, just like in the medium creatures mentioned before, a large weapon cannot usually be used within the arc of the creature's natural reach (and specifically spelling out that this is 10' for a L creature as opposed to 5' for a S/M creature).

And noting that for the Large creature, the weapon must be appropriately-sized.

No, because he is not typical.

But his reach remains such.

If you can read "appropriately sized" as being some kind of attribute/restriction on creatures, then why don't you then see "typical" as an exception?

I do. A non-typical Small or Medium creature might be something like a choker - a Small creature with a 10-foot reach. A non-typical Large creature might be something like a centaur - a Large creature with a 5-foot reach.

A Medium creature with a 5-foot reach, like a half-giant, is typical in this case.

While we're at it...am I correct in assuming you'd find that a Tiny Creature using a 2 hd reach weapon sized for a Small Creature (with Monkey Grip/Powerful Build) or a a Fine creature using a DMG Kusarigama sized for a Small creature (as a 2hd weapon) would get no reach?

The reach weapon rules in the PHB don't cover Tiny or Fine creatures as exceptions to the 'double natural reach' rule, so strictly, a Tiny or Fine creature will always have a 0 reach no matter how many times you double it.

The Savage Species system covers Tiny creatures with reach weapons as an exception, which is another reason I prefer it in my own game.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, we're not going to agree on this one.

Ever.

We clearly give differing parts of the section different weights & interpretations.

That's OK, though- RAW is usually just the beginning anyway.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Smurf (and anyone else who cares):

Not usually one for thread necromancy, but I just stumbled upon this passage from the DMG, and I wondered about your view on it, given your position stated above:

Because Tiny, Diminutive and Fine creatures have no natural reach, they do not normally get attacks of opportunity. Specific creatures may be exceptions, and some may carry reach weapons that do threaten adjacent sqares. 3.5DMG p29

Emphasis mine.

If your interpretation of reach is correct, then this is complete and utter nonsense- RAW vs RAW, the DMG falls to the PHB.

If mine is correct, then reach weapons have definite dimensions of some kind, and can make this statement at least sensible.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If your interpretation of reach is correct, then this is complete and utter nonsense...

Not if they're specific creatures which are exceptions...

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The way I'm reading that clause, there are 2 exeptions not one- #1 being specific creatures that somehow have reach beyond typical creatures their size, and #2 being creatures with reach weapons.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The way I'm reading that clause, there are 2 exeptions not one- #1 being specific creatures that somehow have reach beyond typical creatures their size, and #2 being creatures with reach weapons.

And note that the description of reach weapons states that they allow the wielder to strike at opponents that aren't adjacent to him or her.

Since the Tiny creature reference talks about reach weapons threatening adjacent squares, whatever those weapons are, they behave differently to those described in the PHB.

The Savage Species system made this explicit, stating that a Tiny creature with a Small reach weapon (in 3.5 terms, this would be a Tiny two-handed reach weapon, like a longspear) was treated as if it had 5 feet of reach.

The 3.5 system doesn't cater for Tiny creatures in the description of reach weapons, and your DMG reference contradicts that description... so Tiny reach weapons must, perforce, use a specific rule that has no bearing on Small and larger reach weapons.

-Hyp.