Oversized Reach Weapons

[Dannyalcatraz]

The key words are his space and reach...not the weapon's. He only has a reach of 5' because that is the standard reach for a M creature, he only occupies the space of a M creature as well.

But he uses weapons "designed for a creature one size larger without penalty" (emphasis mine). Losing the 5' of reach a larger weapon permits would be a penalty in my book, at least.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The key words are his space and reach...not the weapon's. He only has a reach of 5' because that is the standard reach for a M creature, he only occupies the space of a M creature as well.

The reach of a M creature is 5 feet, or 10 feet with a reach weapon.

But he uses weapons "designed for a creature one size larger without penalty" (emphasis mine). Losing the 5' of reach a larger weapon permits would be a penalty in my book, at least.

A larger reach weapon permits 10 feet of extra reach to a Large creature. Not a Medium creature.

And a penalty is a negative modifier to a die roll. "You can attack targets 10 feet away, but not adjacent targets" isn't a penalty, it's a feature of wielding a reach weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The reach of a M creature is 5 feet, or 10 feet with a reach weapon.

...appropriate to his size.

A larger reach weapon permits 10 feet of extra reach to a Large creature. Not a Medium creature.

...who normally couldn't wield such a weapon at all under the rules in the Core 3 books.

The larger weapon permits that 10' because reach normally doubles a creature's reach, and a large creature's reach is normally 10'.

However, there are L (long) creatures without 10' reach, and there are reach weapons that don't double a creature's reach, but rather, triple it (whip, spiked chain, chain).

The situation we're describing is outside of the contemplation of the language of the Core 3 books because it was an impossible situation under those rules, namely a M creature wielding (by either spending a Feat or by a racial ability) a (normally unwieldable) weapon that normally doubles the reach of a L creature.

He gets the additional damage, why not the reach? Its not like the weapon shrunk.

 

[Hypersmurf]

...appropriate to his size.

You won't find that in the PHB.

He gets the additional damage, why not the reach? Its not like the weapon shrunk.

He gets the additional damage, because damage is based on the size of the weapon, not the size of the wielder.

He doesn't get the reach, because reach is based on the size of the wielder, not the size of the weapon.

The situation we're describing is outside of the contemplation of the language of the Core 3 books because it was an impossible situation under those rules, namely a M creature wielding (by either spending a Feat or by a racial ability) a (normally unwieldable) weapon that normally doubles the reach of a L creature.

If only, when they'd added an ability to make it possible, they'd thought to address the matter. All it would require would be a sentence stating something like "However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size"...!

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...appropriate to his size.

You won't find that in the PHB.

Because he couldn't possibly use a reach weapon that was oversized. Definitionally impossible situations don't require rules clarifications.

He doesn't get the reach, because reach is based on the size of the wielder, not the size of the weapon.

If a L creature got reach of 20' with a M (or smaller) reach weapon, I might buy into your argument, but it doesn't.

The reach of a weapon is determined by the reach of a normal creature that could normally wield it, but the weapon itself still has an intrinsic reach. Thus, a normal M reach weapon has a reach (10') double the reach of a typical M creature (5'), a normal L reach weapon has a reach (20') double that of a normal L creature (10'), etc.

However, when you go the opposite direction from the Monkey Grip/Powerful Build options, things fall differently than you're asserting.

A Large creature using an undersized reach weapon does not get his standard reach. Despite the fact that the creature is still using a reach weapon, since it is undersized for him it does not deliver the reach an appropriately sized reach weapons would.

All it would require would be a sentence stating something like "However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size"...!

That refers only to the PC himself- he does not gain the reach of a creature larger than himself (it stays at 5', not 10'), he does not take up additional spaces as would a creature the next size larger (one space as opposed to 4).

This has no meaning in regards to a weapon's intrinsic reach.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Because he couldn't possibly use a reach weapon that was oversized. Definitionally impossible situations don't require rules clarifications.

The kusari-gama in the DMG is a light reach weapon - a human could wield a Large or even a Huge version using only the core rulebooks.

And if he did so, he'd threaten opponents 10 feet away or adjacent.

If a L creature got reach of 20' with a M (or smaller) reach weapon, I might buy into your argument, but it doesn't.

It doesn't because Large creatures, unlike Small or Medium creatures, have an 'of appropriate size' specification.

A Small or Medium creature threatens 5 feet, or 10 feet with a reach weapon.

A Large creature threatens 10 feet, or 20 feet with a reach weapon of appropriate size.

The reach is determined by the wielder's size.

A Large creature using an undersized reach weapon does not get his standard reach. Despite the fact that the creature is still using a reach weapon, since it is undersized for him it does not deliver the reach an appropriately sized reach weapons would.

Because Large creatures, unlike Small or Meduim, have the 'of appropriate size' provision.

That refers only to the PC himself- he does not gain the reach of a creature larger than himself (it stays at 5', not 10'), he does not take up additional spaces as would a creature the next size larger (one space as opposed to 4).

And with a reach weapon, he does not gain the reach of a Large creature with a reach weapon; he retains the reach of a Medium creature with a reach weapon (10 feet, not 15 or 20 feet).

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The kusari-gama in the DMG is a light reach weapon - a human could wield a Large or even a Huge version using only the core rulebooks.

I had forgotten it even existed...I just use the one in OA.

And if he did so, he'd threaten opponents 10 feet away or adjacent.

We disagree again.

If a L creature got reach of 20' with a M (or smaller) reach weapon, I might buy into your argument, but it doesn't.

It doesn't because Large creatures, unlike Small or Medium creatures, have an 'of appropriate size' specification.

You don't honestly believe that, do you?

Would you actually let a Huge (tall) creature (not mentioned as having 'of appropriate size' specifications) use a M reach weapon and get its 15-30' reach?

The "appropriate size" language is merely to distinguish it from a creature using an inapropriately sized reach weapon.

The "Inapppropriately sized weapons" section (just a few paragraphs later) uses S, M, and L creatures...as general illustrations of the principles...revealing that all three of them can use "inappropriately sized weapons."

The sizes of the creatures are not exclusive, but illustrative.

A Small or Medium creature threatens 5 feet, or 10 feet with a reach weapon.

Unless its reach weapon is longer than is typical for a M creature's reach weapon...like a whip or a Large reach weapon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I had forgotten it even existed...I just use the one in OA.

Yet it's in the core rules.

You don't honestly believe that, do you?

As written? Absolutely.

Would you actually let a Huge (tall) creature (not mentioned as having 'of appropriate size' specifications) use a M reach weapon and get its 15-30' reach?

Huge creatures aren't referenced at all, so we have to extrapolate from what we know, and they're more similar to Large creatures than they are to Medium creatures.

As I mentioned earlier, it makes sense to me that Large creatures have that stipulation but Medium creatures do not... since if a halfling can reach ten feet with a spear, it's only logical that a human can reach ten feet with the same spear... but if a human can reach ten feet with a spear, it doesn't automatically suggest that an ogre can reach twenty with it.

What makes even more sense to me is a modified Savage Species system, which is what I use in preference over the PHB system... but I don't think that the PHB system caters for mixed reaches.

Under the Savage Species system, a human with an ogre's longspear has a different reach to a human with his own longspear. Under the PHB system, he doesn't.

The "appropriate size" language is merely to distinguish it from a creature using an inapropriately sized reach weapon.

Exactly.

For a Large creature, we distinguish between using an appropriately-sized reach weapon, and an inappropriately-sized reach weapon.

For a Small or Medium creature, we don't.

The "Inapppropriately sized weapons" section (just a few paragraphs later) uses S, M, and L creatures...as general illustrations of the principles...revealing that all three of them can use "inappropriately sized weapons."

Right. And if it's a Large creature, that makes a difference.

The sizes of the creatures are not exclusive, but illustrative.

I'd agree with you. I think the Large creature is illustrative of Large, Huge, and Gargantuan, while the Small and Medium are representative of those who share the same reach over different size categories.

Unless its reach weapon is longer than is typical for a M creature's reach weapon...like a whip or a Large reach weapon.

A Large reach weapon doubles its wielder's reach (unless excluded by an 'of appropriate size' clause). A whip has a reach of 15 feet.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yet it's in the core rules.

So is inconsistent language about what is or isn't a natural weapon...but I digress, and we needn't go round and round on that again.

it makes sense to me that Large creatures have that stipulation but Medium creatures do not... since if a halfling can reach ten feet with a spear, it's only logical that a human can reach ten feet with the same spear

It doesn't to me..."appropriately sized" isn't a stipulation, it a distinction. All its saying is that a Large creature using a Large reach weapon has a different reach than a Medium sized creature using a Medium sized reach weapon, but with better word economy.

Most reach weapons described in this chapter double the wielder's natural reach, meaning the typicial Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a crature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away (PHB p113)

Doesn't it make sense to you that a creature using a larger than normal reach weapon gets more reach?

A Small or Medium wielder with Monkey Grip or Powerful Build is not "typical"- he can wield weapons larger than typical S or M critters can wield, in this case, a reach weapon designed for a creature one size larger than itself. For a Small creature, using a Medium sized reach weapon is only about gaining damage. Since their reach is the same as for Medium creatures, their weapons are quite similar in size. But for a Medium creature, MG or PB means he is using a weapon that doubles the reach of a Large creature, a weapon demonstrably longer than the weapon he'd be using absent the Feat or racial characteristic.

but if a human can reach ten feet with a spear, it doesn't automatically suggest that an ogre can reach twenty with it.

By your interpretation, what reach would a Large (tall) creature with Monkey Grip have with a Huge reach weapon? Or extrapolating, a Huge critter with a Gargantuan one? Neither is "appropriately sized," after all.

For a Large creature, we distinguish between using an appropriately-sized reach weapon, and an inappropriately-sized reach weapon.

For a Small or Medium creature, we don't.

To me, that makes no sense at all.

Right. And if it's a Large creature, that makes a difference.

Actually, it makes a difference for all three sizes mentioned. Each gets the same penalties.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It doesn't to me..."appropriately sized" isn't a stipulation, it a distinction. All its saying is that a Large creature using a Large reach weapon has a different reach than a Medium sized creature using a Medium sized reach weapon, but with better word economy.

Hmm? To me it says that a Large creature using a Large reach weapon has a different reach than a Large creature using a Medium reach weapon. It doesn't comment on Medium creatures at all!

Doesn't it make sense to you that a creature using a larger than normal reach weapon gets more reach?

No, because a creature using a larger-than-normal non-reach weapon doesn't get more reach.

Someone a while back posted a question about a character who, through a combination of racial abilities, feats and epic feats (some third party), and magic weapon special abilities, wielded a Gargantuan greatsword. The sword is tens of feet long... and since it's not a reach weapon, the character threatens 5 feet.

A Small or Medium wielder with Monkey Grip or Powerful Build is not "typical"- he can wield weapons larger than typical S or M critters can wield, in this case, a reach weapon designed for a creature one size larger than itself.

Certainly. And his space and reach remains that of a creature of his normal size category.

By your interpretation, what reach would a Large (tall) creature with Monkey Grip have with a Huge reach weapon? Or extrapolating, a Huge critter with a Gargantuan one? Neither is "appropriately sized," after all.

As written, the Large creature isn't wielding an appropriately-sized weapon. That's one of the flaws in the PHB system that leads me to prefer the Savage Species system.

-Hyp.