Oversized Reach Weapons

[evilbob]

A Large spiked chain? It's a reach weapon of appropriate size, so it threatens 15 feet and 20 feet, but not 5 or 10... with the exception that as a spiked chain, you threaten adjacent squares.

I've always interpreted this to mean, "you threaten adjacent squares that you would normally threaten," giving the more intuitive (to me at least) range of 5, 10, 15, and 20 feet. The PHB is clearly written from a medium-centric point of view; I believe literally interpreting "adjacent squares" to mean "only those squares immediately adjacent" goes against the idea of how the special property of this weapon works.

Clearly, this is but one interpretation.


As for the centaur, I agree they use large-sized weapons, but it can make sense that their reach would be restricted because they aren't "tall" and therefore have to try harder to cover as much area as they do (i.e. most of their "reach" is taken up covering their own squares), whereas an ogre just has the advantage of being able to literally "reach" as far as he does. In any case, I would rule that they use large-sized spiked chains but have a reach as normal (5 and 10 ft.).

 

[Hypersmurf]

I've always interpreted this to mean, "you threaten adjacent squares that you would normally threaten,"

The adjacent squares you would normally threaten are 5 feet away.

The squares 10 feet away that you would normally threaten are not adjacent.

-Hyp.

 

[phindar]

Give [a centaur] an appropriately-sized longspear, and it's the one you took off the hill giant, not the one you took off the hobgoblin.

But to me, since centaur's have human-sized torsos, it makes more sense to give them human sized gear. And centaurs don't really come up enough for it to make much of a difference. Its easier for me to make an exception for the centaur's size category (making it a Med and Large creature stuck together) than it is to figure out why it can wield a 20' polearm, but only attack as far away as a human with a polearm half that size.

I prefer to give centaur's Medium sized gear for their Medium sized torsos than to give them Large gear with Medium Reach. That's my Centaur Exception (that proves the rule).

 

[Hypersmurf]

I prefer to give centaur's Medium sized gear for their Medium sized torsos than to give them Large gear with Medium Reach. That's my Centaur Exception (that proves the rule).

Ah - gotcha.

I misunderstood - I thought you were saying the Centaur Exception was "Centaurs are Large creatures with Medium weapons", rather than "Centaurs are Large creatures with Medium weapons in my game".

What would you consider the reach of a Monster Manual centaur with an appropriately-sized (that is, Large) longspear, absent your Exception?

-Hyp.

 

[phindar]

Well, if I'm understanding the RAW correctly (blind monkeys find the occasional banana), a centaur is a Large creature with a 5' Reach, so it needs a Large Polearm to double its natural Reach to attack an opponent one square away. That would mean that even though a centaur and a human have the same size upper body, if the centaur attempts to use the human's polearm its undersized for him and he gains no Reach bonus, and he can only attack opponents within 5'. The centaur has less Reach than a human when they're wielding the same Reach weapon. (Although admittedly, I can't remember if the undersized Reach weapon providing no bonus is core or not.

 

[Hypersmurf]

(Although admittedly, I can't remember if the undersized Reach weapon providing no bonus is core or not.

What it says:
"A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away."

So without a reach weapon of the appropriate size, we can assume a typical Large creature can't attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away. For example, an Ogre with a Medium longspear.

But it's also reasonable to assume that a centaur isn't a 'typical Large character' in this context, since his reach isn't that of a Large (Tall) creature... so the line about appropriate size may not be applicable.

Once you introduce the blanket ruling from the FAQ that 'wielding a 'too-small' reach weapon grants no reach', you definitely get the situation you describe.

From the FAQ:
A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but
only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the
wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach.

An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach
weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack
foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large
creature wielding a non-reach weapon).

A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach
weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further),
and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away
(as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A
human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach
from the weapon.

The Player’s Handbook isn’t as clear on this as it could be,
although an example of reach in action on page 113 in the
Player’s Handbook provides pretty strong support: “A typical
Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate
size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . .” [italics
added]. While this reference doesn’t mention the ability to
wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size, allowing
such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable
extension of the spirit and intent of the rule.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Monkey Grip is more like wielding the weapon as if it were size Medium.

I disagree. It says:

You can use a melee weapon one size category larger than you with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change. <edit> You can wield a larger light weapon as light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon. CompWar p103

The attack penalties to wielding the weapon and limitations on off-hand and double weapon use would indicate that the weapon is still somewhat unwieldy, reflecting the "monkey grip" really is allowing a creature to use something larger than it normally could. Only by virtue of a special gripping technique (which neccessarily involves your stronger hand) can the outsized weapon be used even remotely properly.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The attack penalties to wielding the weapon and limitations on off-hand and double weapon use would indicate that the weapon is still somewhat unwieldy, reflecting the "monkey grip" really is allowing a creature to use something larger than it normally could.

Certainly. But if you use the penalty as evidence that you're not treating the weapon as Medium, it's evidence by exactly the same logic that you're not treating yourself as Large, since a Large creature wouldn't take the penalty either.

I look at the effort not changing as being more a function of the weapon being treated as your size, rather than the reverse... which happens to fit with the PHB rules on reach weapons (a Medium wielder of a reach weapon threatens 10 feet, not 15 feet).

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Certainly. But if you use the penalty as evidence that you're not treating the weapon as Medium, it's evidence by exactly the same logic that you're not treating yourself as Large, since a Large creature wouldn't take the penalty either.

True enough, but taken as a whole- no use of double weapons, no oversized weapons in the off-hand- the limitations of Monkey Grip show that the oversized weapon, while wieldable, is still awkward at best. Conceptually, these restrictions fit the model of a creature using an oversized weapon with balance points out beyond where they would be with an appropriately sized weapon. With a reach weapon, that means there is more mass beyond your grip points than is usual, thus, more reach...and the resultant -2 penalty to hit.

Powerful Build, OTOH, is quite clear that the oversized weapon is wielded as if the smaller creature were one size larger.

Is it your contention that a creature with Powerful Build gets the benefit of the longer reach and the creature with Monkey Grip does not?

I look at the effort not changing as being more a function of the weapon being treated as your size, rather than the reverse... which happens to fit with the PHB rules on reach weapons (a Medium wielder of a reach weapon threatens 10 feet, not 15 feet).

The effort of wielding the weapon still changes somewhat- despite no weapon size change, there is still an attack penalty.

A L sized creature hands its reach weapon to a M sized creature. The weapon doesn't shrink, but a special technique (the Feat) allows the smaller creature to wield the otherwise unusable larger reach weapon.

The creature isn't merely choking up on the weapon's haft, thus counterbalancing the weight. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a restriction against the feat not mitigating off-hand penalties of oversized off-hand weapons. Nor would there be the continued absolute restriction against using double weapons if he were still just grasping the weapon towards the middle- still quite balanaced, but unwieldy from the extra mass.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Powerful Build, OTOH, is quite clear that the oversized weapon is wielded as if the smaller creature were one size larger.

Is it your contention that a creature with Powerful Build gets the benefit of the longer reach and the creature with Monkey Grip does not?

Certainly not - Powerful Build specifies that his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size... and when a Medium creature wields a reach weapon, he threatens 10 feet.

-Hyp.