Overuse of monsters and magic.

[White Whale]

Heroic fantasy, like Tolkien, has a very broad, world reaching scope, is generally fairly high magic, and has all sorts of non-humans as protagonists.

I don't know if I would agree that Tolkien is high magic; except for a precious few persons (Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond...) the magic is all low level (mostly 0th or 1st level spell D&D equivalent) and for the average people virtually non-existent. Gandalf is IMO the D&D equivalent of a 6-7 level wizard/bard. Yet Gandalf is immensely powerful compared to the rest of the world inhabitants which are mostly level 1 dorks.

My personal preference is that magic should be exotic and rare. I think the logical consequences to magic worlds like those outlined in the DMG, Faerun and Eberron are that there would be utter chaos. Low level spells like invisibility, fly, silence are so world altering that it would be next to impossible to foresee the effects of their availability.

 

[Hussar]

I don't know if I would agree that Tolkien is high magic; except for a precious few persons (Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond...) the magic is all low level (mostly 0th or 1st level spell D&D equivalent) and for the average people virtually non-existent. Gandalf is IMO the D&D equivalent of a 6-7 level wizard/bard. Yet Gandalf is immensely powerful compared to the rest of the world inhabitants which are mostly level 1 dorks.

My personal preference is that magic should be exotic and rare. I think the logical consequences to magic worlds like those outlined in the DMG, Faerun and Eberron are that there would be utter chaos. Low level spells like invisibility, fly, silence are so world altering that it would be next to impossible to foresee the effects of their availability.

Reread the Simmilarian and tell me that Middle Earth is a low magic setting.

Every member of the fellowship has at least one magic item, usually more, including a couple of artifact level items like Narsil and the Ring. Gandalf goes toe to toe with the most powerful wizard in Middle Earth (Saruman) and while he loses, he does give as good as he gets. Never mind that he also goes toe to toe with a Balrog and wins. Gandalf uses as much magic in the novels as he needs to. Lets not forget that a fair chunk of the Fellowship isn't even human, they regularly face inhuman monsters, and that non-humans are numerous enough that they can actually field armies.

These are all tropes of high fantasy. Low magic doesn't just mean low magic items. Low magic, means that non-humans are incredibly rare, almost non-existent, monsters are more "prehistoric beasts" like giant snakes than immortal spirits riding dragons.

This is a mistake a lot of people seem to make. Low magic isn't just about limiting the number of glowing swords the party finds, it's about a setting where magic is actually rare. Magic isn't rare in a setting where you have immortal elves rubbing shoulders with humans while the forests are full of Ents and were-bears, and dragons hold sway over large chunks of land.

/edit

Just out of curiousity, why specifically call out the Realms and Eberron and not Greyhawk? GH is awash in magic items and all sorts of fantastic elements, pretty much as much as FR. Heck, you have a GOD running one of the countries.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I don't know if I would agree that Tolkien is high magic; except for a precious few persons (Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond...) the magic is all low level (mostly 0th or 1st level spell D&D equivalent) and for the average people virtually non-existent. Gandalf is IMO the D&D equivalent of a 6-7 level wizard/bard. Yet Gandalf is immensely powerful compared to the rest of the world inhabitants which are mostly level 1 dorks.

The events recorded in LotR is a peculiar slice of a larger history. The D&D world most of us play in is closer in feel to the 2nd Age than the very tail end of the 3rd.

 

[Valiant]

When you look at Tolkien as a comparison for AD&D, I think most people are thinking of "The Hobbit" second most "LOTR" Trilogy (mostly the first 2 books, pre-White Wizard) and 3rd the Simerilon (which defines alot thats not very AD&Dish).

Q - What bounds would those be? Early 1e modules had robots, lasers, Victorian houses, six shooters, cannons (A1), and a host of other things as well.-

Those were "one shot" things, and very much out of the ordinary. We didn't see robots become the norm, nor cannons (that, to us players and DMs, would have been stupid). The "norm" in AD&D was (and is to those still playing) very similar to "The Hobbit" level of technology, but grittier and more magical. I think the vast majority of those posting here prefer the Tolkien/Midievil feel to Victorian, or dungeon-punk or airships, canons and the like. Those are examples of elements that were fine as one shots, but became "movements" of style in the FRPG D20 community. The standard AD&D setting we knew as kids was changed to WOW the younger generation into action, with tattooed mowhawked elves riding steam engine powered air ships battleing in "Water World" fashion.

Anyhow, as I said in an above post, anything you want to throw into an AD&D game is fine with me, it just shouldn't become the norm that other module writers build upon.

 

[shilsen]

Just out of curiousity, why specifically call out the Realms and Eberron and not Greyhawk? GH is awash in magic items and all sorts of fantastic elements, pretty much as much as FR. Heck, you have a GOD running one of the countries.

I personally find Greyhawk to be significantly more high-magic than Eberron (not to mention much more high-powered). As some poster on ENWorld (whose name I can't recall) had noted a while ago, Eberron can be more appropriately called a "wide magic" setting. There is a greater availability of low-level magic in Eberron than in Greyhawk and FR, what with the artificers, magewrights, dragonmarked houses and the role of magic in society. But as one moves towards higher levels of magic, the rarity of PC classes in society and the scarcity of high level PCs means that more powerful magic is much scarcer than in Greyhawk or FR. For example, whereas Greyhawk may have NPC rulers who are 15th level paladins and fighters and wizards, in Eberron they're likely to be in the 5th-10th level range and have levels in noble and warrior as well. In my Eberron game, it's made amply clear to the 13th lvl PCs how much of an aberration (pun unintended, for those who read my Story Hour) they are. In Greyhawk they would hardly be exceptional.

I think the vast majority of those posting here prefer the Tolkien/Midievil feel to Victorian, or dungeon-punk or airships, canons and the like.

I think that's an unsupported assertion, and fairly irrelevant. Note that the people posting here, while clearly very invested in D&D, are only a fraction of the people who play the game. Don't assume that the tastes of ENWorld (even if you were accurate about the tastes of such a large and diverse community) are resresentative of D&D gamers as a whole. The fact that 3e/3.5e has done so well and Eberron has been such a successful setting and continues to be so means that there's clearly a large community that is very happy with what you dismiss as dungeon-punk.

Anyhow, as I said in an above post, anything you want to throw into an AD&D game is fine with me, it just shouldn't become the norm that other module writers build upon.

As I've asked before, why not? If module writers and game designers can sell their wares better by catering to an audience that isn't you, why shouldn't they?

 

[Davelozzi]

Don't give a damage bonus, change the damage of the weapon. Have it increase THACO or BAB or effective level or whatever, not give a flat bonus. But it is "magic", so it works like a magic weapon re: DR, immunities, etc...

You say "tomayto", I say "tomahto".

Call it a plus to the weapon or change the character's BAB, the result is exactly the same. "Oh it's not a +2 weapon, just a weapon that gives a +2 to my attack bonus? whatever..."

 

[Valiant]

I think that's an unsupported assertion, and fairly irrelevant. Note that the people posting here, while clearly very invested in D&D, are only a fraction of the people who play the game. Don't assume that the tastes of ENWorld (even if you were accurate about the tastes of such a large and diverse community) are resresentative of D&D gamers as a whole. The fact that 3e/3.5e has done so well and Eberron has been such a successful setting and continues to be so means that there's clearly a large community that is very happy with what you dismiss as dungeon-punk.



As I've asked before, why not? If module writers and game designers can sell their wares better by catering to an audience that isn't you, why shouldn't they?

Look, why are you taking this personally (and why do you think anyone else is)? I'm stating what I think, and what likely others think about how monsters and magic are missused by FRPG writers (to produce novelty perhaps). You are free to disagree with me of coure, thats why were on this forum in the first place.

And I don't blame game designers for putting out what sells, that wasn't even the topic of this thread. BTW I think they probably did make a good business decision with these settings, afterall they are making a profit. Could that profit have been bigger if they'd stuck to something that looked more like 1E? Who knows. My guess is no.

 

[shilsen]

Look, why are you taking this personally (and why do you think anyone else is)?

Not taking it personally. I just tend to be amused when people make posts or threads which argue that their tastes or preferred way to play is the "right" way to do so, and that's the tone I get off your posts/threads, hence I've been responding to them. I'm slightly nuts, as my players will vouch, but not enough to actually take words on a messageboard from a random stranger personally

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The "norm" in AD&D was (and is to those still playing) very similar to "The Hobbit" level of technology, but grittier and more magical.

More magical than...
...made friends with werebear...
...defeated 3 trolls...
...found 3 famous named magical swords...
...found Ring of Invisibility...
...met a great dragon...
...dragon defeated...
...acquired dragon hoard...
...fought a small war...
...then awarded armor worth more than the Shire?

That is a pretty high floor.

 

[Valiant]

Not taking it personally. I just tend to be amused when people make posts or threads which argue that their tastes or preferred way to play is the "right" way to do so, and that's the tone I get off your posts/threads, hence I've been responding to them. I'm slightly nuts, as my players will vouch, but not enough to actually take words on a messageboard from a random stranger personally

Good to here. BTW, the reason I use the 1E header is to get the feedback of people coming from that perspective (rather then 3E player perspective). Each game is different, and needs to be considered in that way.