Overuse of monsters and magic.

[Raven Crowking]

...found 3 famous named magical swords...

Ahem. Found two famous named swords. Bilbo named Sting, and made it famous.

Also, Sting was a long dagger....Bilbo considered it a sword because of his size.

RC

 

[Valiant]

More magical than...
...made friends with werebear...
...defeated 3 trolls...
...found 3 famous named magical swords...
...found Ring of Invisibility...
...met a great dragon...
...dragon defeated...
...acquired dragon hoard...
...fought a small war...
...then awarded armor worth more than the Shire?

That is a pretty high floor.

Oh, didn't mean to say it was short in magic, monsters or action, rather its "technology" level was low and in line with a classic Medievil fairy tale. So no canons, air ships, magically lit streets and houses, etc. Magic could be seen, but not by the everyday man (you had to be hanging around a wizard or amongst monsters).

 

[Reynard]

You say "tomayto", I say "tomahto".

Call it a plus to the weapon or change the character's BAB, the result is exactly the same. "Oh it's not a +2 weapon, just a weapon that gives a +2 to my attack bonus? whatever..."

Actually, I say that there's more to a character's equipment than what numbers get altered on the character sheet.

 

[White Whale]

Reread the Simmilarian and tell me that Middle Earth is a low magic setting.

Every member of the fellowship has at least one magic item, usually more, including a couple of artifact level items like Narsil and the Ring. Gandalf goes toe to toe with the most powerful wizard in Middle Earth (Saruman) and while he loses, he does give as good as he gets. Never mind that he also goes toe to toe with a Balrog and wins. Gandalf uses as much magic in the novels as he needs to. Lets not forget that a fair chunk of the Fellowship isn't even human, they regularly face inhuman monsters, and that non-humans are numerous enough that they can actually field armies.

These are all tropes of high fantasy. Low magic doesn't just mean low magic items. Low magic, means that non-humans are incredibly rare, almost non-existent, monsters are more "prehistoric beasts" like giant snakes than immortal spirits riding dragons.

This is a mistake a lot of people seem to make. Low magic isn't just about limiting the number of glowing swords the party finds, it's about a setting where magic is actually rare. Magic isn't rare in a setting where you have immortal elves rubbing shoulders with humans while the forests are full of Ents and were-bears, and dragons hold sway over large chunks of land.

Well, I still think Tolkien is low magic, but I guess it's a matter of definition. By low magic I mean that magic items and powerful spellcasters are rare. And I am not talking about the Fellowship party, but in the world as a whole which imho defines the setting. The age of the Silmarils is long gone, and LotR takes place in a much less powerful and mythic setting

Just out of curiousity, why specifically call out the Realms and Eberron and not Greyhawk? GH is awash in magic items and all sorts of fantastic elements, pretty much as much as FR. Heck, you have a GOD running one of the countries.

Well, I was actually referring to Greyhawk when I cited the DMG, although I admit it was unclear what I meant.

 

[White Whale]

The events recorded in LotR is a peculiar slice of a larger history. The D&D world most of us play in is closer in feel to the 2nd Age than the very tail end of the 3rd.

Oh, I definitely agree. Though I like the LotR setting better, where God-like beings don't roam and pillage the world.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Oh, I definitely agree. Though I like the LotR setting better, where God-like beings don't roam and pillage the world.

But that would have happened if Sauron was not a giant flaming disembodied EYEBALL. He still directed much roaming pillage. Tom Bombadil = hella god-like, just into singing silly songs and not rampaging, still within the realm of possibility.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Oh, I definitely agree. Though I like the LotR setting better, where God-like beings don't roam and pillage the world.

I generally agree.

God-like beings roaming the world is not necessarily a problem if there are long quiescent periods or eras when the footpaths of the gods are reasonably predictable. The PCs just need enough elbow room to feel heroic and stretch their imaginations without feeling quashed by the dread god Arbitrary.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Reread the Simmilarian and tell me that Middle Earth is a low magic setting.

You mean the Silmarillion, I take it?

I think White Whale's point about the availability of fly, silence, create food, teleport, etc etc holds perfectly true. What exactly do the elves or wizards of Middle-Earth do that even approaches such ubiquitous twisting of reality?

Every member of the fellowship has at least one magic item, usually more, including a couple of artifact level items like Narsil and the Ring.

While the Ring may be an artifact-level item in D&D terms, what convinces you that Narsil is? Its major importance is as an heirloom and a symbol.

Gandalf goes toe to toe with the most powerful wizard in Middle Earth (Saruman) and while he loses, he does give as good as he gets. Never mind that he also goes toe to toe with a Balrog and wins. Gandalf uses as much magic in the novels as he needs to. Lets not forget that a fair chunk of the Fellowship isn't even human, they regularly face inhuman monsters, and that non-humans are numerous enough that they can actually field armies.

All meaningless stuff for purposes of determining things like "level" or "magic availability" in the D&D context. Who knows how powerful a balrog actually is in D&D game terms? Or how high level Saruman is? His primary powers as a Maiar of Aule are his ability to build stuff (and even something like a crystal ball is beyond his capabilities) and persuade with his voice, both powers available to low-level wizards in D&D.

The problem is that "high-magic" doesn't really apply in most literary fantasy settings to the way in works in D&D. D&D is much more like the Marvel universe or DCU than like Middle-Earth. None of the characters in something like LotR pull off anything that would be more than a low-level feat in D&D terms; the fact that in the context of the story, it sounds like a big deal isn't really relevant to the mechanics, such as they are, underlying the act. This is an issue relevant to ALL editions of D&D, ever since spells like invisibility, fly, polymorph, teleport, and raise dead were part of the setting.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

There certainly are hints that 3rd level was originally thought of as high level, and 5th as really high level.

Surely this could work if your typical veteran soldier or knight is modeled as a d8 BAB +1 puke with no stat bonuses worth mentioning. All the run-of-the-mill mooks are generally d6 BAB +0 that will all drop with the faintest tickle of a hero's sword.

With this power scale, we could model Gandalf as 6th level, Saruman 7th level, Elrond 7th level, Galadriel 8th, and Sauron 9th. It just so happens that certain spells like Fly are rare, but with so few casters above 2nd in this universe it is unnecessary to think of "standard spells" as a meaningful concept.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

They are an almost totally unsupported segment (save for a handful of really super small publishers).

Are they?

Mongoose publishing puts out at least three lines devoted to lower-magic settings. Major, well-supported game lines, from what appears to be the second- or third-largest RPG publisher on the planet.

Green Ronin produces a famous gritty/lower-magic setting. It's well supported, even leaving out the wargames and electronic games sharing the setting.

The Burning Wheel is very suitable for such a setting. The Riddle of Steel is even more so. Both are quite successful by indie RPG standards.

The key thing is that none of these are D&D - because D&D does this exceedingly poorly. None of these games have 9th level spells available to PCs, for example.