Painful splattering aka Really Big Stuff Hurts

[Lurker 2.0]

To begin with, a disclaimer: I'm a Statistics major, freshman. This means 1: I'm a nut about numbers, especially probabilites. 2: I'm not that great at it, however (haven't had a hard-core Stat class in two years), so feel free to point out my errors, those of you with better grounding.

Now, is it just my first glance, or do high-level fighter-jocks get screwed out the wazoo in combat if they don't configure the right way?
To be specific, sword-and-board becomes worthless, while 2H tears things into little tiny shreds.
By higher levels, AC becomes more and more useless. This is basically thanks to the increasing HD of monsters - to put it quite simply, I loathe Table 4-4 of the MM. Monstrous Humanoid/Magical Beast, as an example of the lowest-CR types with a good BAB, gain +3 BAB/1 CR (although you'll have occasional gaps for size increases and significant gains in special ability DC).

Okay, I had a series of huge diagrams and hypothetical situations planned, but it's 12:30 AM and I've gotta sleep sometime, so trash that. Instead, I'm just gonna say that with a practiced Rules-Lawyer-Turned-DM's eye, I've been looking over stats for powerful critters in MM3 and the like. A 17th level party facing a Frost Giant Jarl: 17th level S&B fighter can have about a 43 AC TOPS using Core stuff (+5 mithral plate and shield, +5 RoP and AoNA) Jarl's still got a +30 melee attack, that's a 40% chance. With everything maxed out. And you don't wanna be there when he hits.
Um... anyhow, lots more numbers needed... but at a glance and with about 30 mins of calculations, it looks like the absolute best way to fight (and practically the only way once you hit about Level 40) is with a bigass two-hander, as much damage as you can do, jack for AC, tons of HP, and something that gives concealment/miss chance. With size differences and hugeass monster Str and BAB, folks who go with disarm, trip, or sunder typically end up getting burned too (especially when fighting folks with natural weapons).

I'm not trying to follow the ways of forum-goers everywhere and just complain about this, I'm looking for ways to balance this out and in general make the fighter better. It's looking to me like there are no real decent fighter feats between about 6th level (by which time you can have Whirlwind & Spring Attack, Great Cleave, or most of the Mounted/Archery feats) and Epic. After you finish one feat chain, there's really nothing to get except Focus/Spec, which don't really feel good enough to match up to other classes (since feats are the fighter's only class feature), and the other feat chains. I know there's a couple enhanced feats, like that version of Manyshot that lets you aim at a lot of targets (I totally forget the source, I've been reading too many lately), but they just don't seem to cut it for "the basics" - the Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and Dodge chains.
So I guess, thinking about it, what I'm really looking for is ideas for extra feats at the end of the chains. Ones that are balanced-ish. And please, I know we all love to tout our own special discoveries, but I'm cheap as only an affluent college student can be, so kindly refrain from saying "Oh, well just look in obscure d20 product ____".
Also, if anyone can just mathmatically disprove my worries, I'll rest easier.

 

[Majere]

Well,
At low level ac stops you getting hit.
A high level ac stops the enemy power attacking. If a monster has +43 to hit and you have 42 ac, they will do less damage than if you have 20ac and he power attack for an additional 23 damage on everysingle attack.
Additionally, at higher level you can just invest in a flying shield to get the ac back anyway.

However, YOU DONT NEED ANY FEATS TO GO SWORD AND BOARD.
That is, fighter classes get sword and board "for free", and as they go up in levels they get feats (lots of feats if you are a fighter). As TWF raises to dominance they can invest these feats in TWF without losing the option to fight S&B. Persoanlly I cosider this to be the reason fighters are such a strong class, they can get the full TWF chain much more easily than other classes. and the dont have to give up all the other feat chains to get TWF (as can rangers).

TWF should be more powerful, you have to invest 4 feats in the chain, and invest a significant portion of your wealth in a second weapon. If after 4 feats you were no better than a S&B fighter who had invested 0 feats and haf as much in their weapons that would suck.


Majere

 

[Majere]

Your not even trying if you think the good feats stop at 6, the best feats come at 8 or 12, namely improved crit and greater weapon focus.

Example feats for fighters:

WF, WS(4), IWF(8), IWS(12)
Improved critical(8)
Ambidexterity, TWF, ITF, GTWF
Iron will, Great fortitude, Lightning reflexes.
Power attack, Cleave
Combat expertise.

Thats 15 feats (so a fighter level 16 as a human, 18 as another race) without even trying for something a "different" such as an exotic weapon proficiency. The saving throw feats are really important for fighters, your going to be targetted alot so you should look to get IW and LR as soon as you have a "dead" feat.
Dodge is a solid feat (dodge bonuses stack), so there are still more feats over and above those I listed. Only fighters could ever hope to match feat chains like this, so to build uber TWF you are limited to basically playing a fighter (who plays level 40 characters ? Ive never got past level 15 )

Majere

 

[FireLance]

Pile on a few more feats and it doesn't look so bad.

FGJ has +30 melee, AC 29.

Let's say our 17th level S&B fighter has 24 Str (14 base, +4 stat increase, +6 enhancement) and a +5 weapon, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus. That's +31 melee straight off. Now let's give him Combat Expertise and Dodge. Pushing 5 points of BAB to AC gives him effectively AC 49 against the FGJ, and a melee attack of +26. The fighter hits the FGJ 90% of the time while the FGJ hits him 10% of the time.

Not so shabby, eh?

 

[Shadowdweller]

Well, at about the time that PCs can afford +3 armor, animated shields start becoming available (depending on campaign and DM of course). In which case, I suppose, the Sword and Board way sort of loses it's attraction.

 

[green slime]

And it isn't quite true at AC43.

That depends on how deep into the WotC and other d20 publishers books you are willing to invest.

17th level Fighter:
Base 10 +5 RoP +5 AoNA +5 armour enhancment +10 full plate armour +5 shield enhancement +3 extreme shield +4 Dex = AC47
Heavy Armour Optimization (RoS)
Greater Heavy Armour Optimization (RoS)
Exotic Shield Proficiency (Extreme Shield) (replacing Tower Shield)
Combat Expertise
Superior Expertise (CW)
Dodge
Mobility...
and the AC vs the giant is 48-65, +4 vs movement provoked AoO... Pray that he isn't a dwarf as well...

With Strength 26, the 17th level fighter has melee attack
+17 BAB +8 Str +2 GWS +5 magic = +32-+15

So, even with a AC 65 and defending he'll be hitting the FGJ on a roll of 14 or better (35% of the time) while the FGJ will only hit 5% of the time.

 

[green slime]

Mind you, I agree that there should be more high level feats available. Complete Warrior started to redress the problem, and they have a few interesting high level feats there (Elusive Target), but in general, I feel they are still short changing the feat chains.

Somehow, I feel that the feat chains should be 6, 8 or 10 feats deep. Requiring a lot of committment to get the extreme abilities at the end. It seems strange that most feat chains stop at a depth of four (Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack-Whirlwind Attack) (Combat Exertise being a prerequisite that can be taken at any time prior, doesn't add to the depth).These abilities would then be near-epic or even epic in scope. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon kind of moves.

 

[Darklone]

That's sadly most of the times solved by offering prestige classes, but you're right IMHO: All prestige classes should be available as feat chains.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Lurker 2.0:

Try this: ditch HD and replace with a monster level.

The problem I have with HD is exactly what you stated: it completely outpaces the PCs' level, so that at high levels, PCs are outclassed when it comes to BAB, saving throws, skills, etc., thus requiring crazy spells, feat combos, magic items, specialized class/PrC combos, etc. to allow PCs to compete.

One of the really great things about 3E is the way that they statted monsters to be virtually identical to PCs. This allows the combat, skills, etc. rules that PCs use to be applied to monsters, making for a very streamlined system. The one stat that stands out is Hit Dice. Hit Dice is treated as a monster's 'level', meaning it works just like a PC level when calculating BAB, saving throws, etc.

The problem though, is that Hit Dice is a factor of a creature's size (i.e. a bigger monster needs more hit points, so it is assigned more Hit Dice, which artificially increase its BAB, skill points, etc.). Consider this: a normal-sized sheep suddenly zoomed up to Colossal size. Why would this larger sheep suddenly develop better combat skills then a top-level Fighter? Why are his Will saves suddenly able to easily resist the most potent mind-affecting magic? Why can this sheep suddenly Tumble with the most acrobatic Rogues?

By splitting size-based characteristics (e.g. bonus hit points for being larger) from measure of prowess (i.e. level), you'll end up with a much more balanced system.

How it works:

All monsters have a 'level' in a 'class'. The class is the monster type (undead, vermin, giant, animal, fey, etc.). For example, a typical stone giant could be a level 8 Giant (size Large); a teen or elderly stone giant could be a level 5 or 6 Giant; a child could be a level 2 Giant. Its BAB, saves, etc. would be based on its level, but it would get bonus hit points for being Large (in addition to other size-based benefits/penalties).

One of the many advantages of this system is that adding class levels to a monster no longer make it outrageously powerful.

Now I understand that this is a drastic change: current CRs, magic item values, and the power level of spells goes completely out the window, so I'm not suggesting that this is something you can casually toss into your typical d20 game. I'm just throwing this out there as food for thought.

 

[Kabol]

Combat Exper.

Your fogeting one of THE prime tanking feats - Combat Exp.

Your mob has +30 to hit - so Max is out at +50 with Die roll. All Joe Tank has to do it Sac. 7 to his Attack and add that to his AC < moveing it form 43 to 50. The Jarl moves form 40% chance to hit to a 5% chance to hit < and importantly a 1 in 500 chance of critting >

That will also pretty much will negate him for attempting to power attack.

And hopefully will piss him off enough that he will keep tying to pound on you and forget about the cleric or wizard.

Also - Its a differant type of character - Im currently playing a Tanker in Our game - I dont really care much bout being able to dish out Dmg, I want to keep him busy for 2 reasons.

1) Focused healing - much more efficent to heal 1 person then spliting it between others
2) If i can keep him busy - the otehrs will be able to kill the mobs Much faster.

Its jsut a differant View on the Same Idea - Id rather not get hit - then hit him very hard.