D&D 4E Paizo and 4e - Vive le Revolution!

[Glyfair]

Edit: On second thought, this is better as a new thread. Posted here.

 

[JohnSnow]

It depends how niche the niche is. Based on polls here, 10-20% of message board posters are disgruntled. I doubt that number is substantially higher in the general population. Assuming the new edition draws in new players (which is likely), that percentage will drop.

So what makes more sense for Paizo? Selling adventures and supplements to 90% of the audience? Or ignoring that 90% to cater to the other 10% of it? I think the answer's pretty obvious.

And the other question is how many products they'd actually BUY. A lot of the 3.75 crowd just wants a couple books a year. And they probably don't want the same ones.

 

[Erik Mona]

While I do think there will remain a small market for 3.5 stuff, I think Paizo is too large a company to serve it profitably. I strongly suspect Paizo's best interests are in converting to 4.0, and I think the whole community is better served playing one game rather than a bunch of them. Ideally, 4.0 will be that game and people will be happy.

Paizo is not an official licensee anymore. We can't publish Greyhawk, we can't publish the Great Wheel, and we can't carry the banner for all of the sacred cows WotC is killing.

What we CAN do is use the new rules to create exciting material in the SPIRIT of the game we love and have loved most of our lives. We're looking forward to a chance to do that, and we expect that the new rules will allow us to.

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC

 

[Minicol]

"Wow. They've already won? I'm pretty sure that all the sales of all the third party companies added together wouldn't make a dent in WOTC sales numbers"end quote

Yes they did effortlessly.

Now quite frankly, as long as I can get my 3.X or 3.75 from them, I do not care if a lot of fools switch to 4e.

After all it's me who gets the quality material in such a scenario.

 

[Rechan]

Now quite frankly, as long as I can get my 3.X or 3.75 from them, I do not care if a lot of fools switch to 4e.

Y'know, I understand you hate 4e, but there's no reason to be insulting.

 

[jasin]

Monte Cook is heading up the 3.75 rules that are compatible with 3.5 and 3.0 (at least as compatible as 3.5 was with 3.0). Necromancer Games and Goodman Games are supporting the Paizo launch of 3.75. And Paizo is leveraging its Pathfinder fanbase to promote it as well. The flavor is "old school," "Great Wheel" D&D.

I see two problems.

First: making a Paizo 3.75 will lose them a bit of their audience, since some people will see it as not much different than 4E: more books to buy, more rules to learn, more departures from the comfortable status quo. Not making a Paizo 3.75 but sticking with 3.5 will lose them a bit of their audience, since some people are tired of 3.5's flaws, and want them fixed, even if 4E isn't what they want.

Second: this might, just might have a shot at working if Paizo could keep making "old school" D&D with the Great Wheel, mind flayers, beholders, beguilers, scouts, runestaves, reserve feats and all those other things 3.5 players have spent their money on. They can't. This is all WotC intellectual property. Even if they kept their 3.75 compatible enough that the players would continue to use all this material (which is unlikely, simply due to psychology: how often do people use 3.0 material in 3.5 games?), you'll never see a mind flayer in a Pathfinder adventure.

You're trying to bank on the crowd that's unhappy with rules changes and departures from tradition in 4E with rules changes and departures from tradition in Pathfinder/3.75.

 

[Orcus]

I'll take all the "ifs" out of it. And put in some "wants".

I "WANT" to support 4e. Why? Philosophically, it is the theme of Necro "3e rules, 1e feel" should probably be "modern rules, old school soul"(tm). Our model as a thrid party company is Judges Guild. They always adopted the newest versions of the rules as they came out. It is our goal to make sure that the current game of D&D is always fully injected with what I consider to be the right feel--a classic feel, a respect for the history of the game, etc.

I "WANT" D&D, whatever its incarnation, to thrive. To do that, I think that I and others need to have 4e products at launch to help people get on board 4e because I see a division in the gaming public as bad for D&D as a whole.

I "WANT" the 4E rules to, in short, RULE! I am a gamer first and a business person second. I have always run Necro as the company that I always wished existed when I was a younger gamer. I make decisions with my gut and my heart and NOT with the almighty dollar. And I think we have shown that following your passion is a successful business model, because in doing so--in following our hearts and not our wallets we have wound up making money. So as a gamer first, I really want 4E to just totally rock my socks.

But that said, Bill and I cant work for nothing. Necro is a hobby company for us, that is true. But still a company. We have writers, authors, artists, etc. They dont have day jobs as a lawyer to feed the wife and kids. So we still, to some extent, have an obligation to not just go be a bunch of idiots and throw money away.

I wont sit idly by doing nothing while WotC sorts out the 4E rules delivery issues for d20 publishers. I cant.

In short, my hand might be forced.

I want to support 4e. I am planning to support 4e. I have announced support for 4e. I have, with Paizo, started the solicitation process for 4e products. I am working on content. I am working on layout and design. For 4e products.

But this is far from finalized. If WotC doesnt get me everything I need in time to be relevant at or around launch that that really changes my calculations.

And, like Mona, I can envision a situation where by WotC failing to get us stuff in a timely fashion that it makes it real difficult for me to embrace 4e. That isnt my goal. Just the opposite. But I cant keep sitting here on some killer products--Tegel Manor, The Abyss (oh, hadnt heard about that one yet, had you? ), etc.-- and wait for WotC to get me to 4e. If things take too long, I cant just wait. And if I cant do 4e, then just staying 3.5 doesnt make sense either. Because once 4e does launch, without me on board, that system dies in a true commercial sense. Maybe pdf publishers thrive. But distributors are going to have a very limited appetite for 3.5 products following launch of 4e. So if I cant do 4e, and if 3.5 isnt really a long term viable solution, then it makes sense for Mona and I (and maybe others, and maybe such discussions have already been had months ago, but I'm not saying) to do 4e "our way"--aka 3.75. In other words, to make a competing system and to support that. Now, make sure you understand this I DONT WANT TO DO THAT. I WANT to support 4e. But that isnt my call, its WotC's call.

So I WANT to go 4E. Now its up to WotC.

I guess we'll all see how this plays out.

Which explains why my cell phone bill is up these days with lots of calls to Erik Mona....

So there you have it in no uncertain terms.

And also please understand I AM NOT CRITICIZING WOTC. Those guys are good guys. In particular, I really dig Scott Rouse. He has been super cool and supportive of Necro and all the things. But they are slammed right now, is the sense I get. They are putting out a new edition, and that is a TON of work. I'm sure THEY WANT to have Necro and others on board for 4e launch. We just have to wait and see if what we all want actually comes to pass. I think it will. But if it doesnt, there is definately a scenario that plays out as Mona described.

Clark

 

[Plane Sailing]

However, 4e has not met with universal acclaim

This claim will only be tested when 4e appears. It is arguably likely to be less of a departure than 3e was, and 3e turned out to have universal enough acclaim to do very well by all accounts...

 

[Orcus]

I can virtually guarantee that the answer to this is no. Right now Paizo can sell to any player of D&D. If they shot off and made their own system they'd only be able to sell to a limited audience. This is a complete pipe dream.

I'm telling you right now it isnt a pipe dream. This topic has been seriously discussed by me and others. I wont name names. If they want to identify themselves they can.

A very KEY decision was made 9 months ago for Necro about this. We strongly considered "teaming with others" to do a 3.75 so to speak.

I rejected the idea for two reasons (beyond the philosophical reason that I already stated which dictates that Necro stay with the current version of the game of D&D):

1. I was convinced in my own mind and for various legal reasons of my own deduction that WotC would keep 4e open or would at least make support available to certain third party publishers. I didnt have any inside info. I just "did the math." They would have to make D&D so not D&D anymore for me to not be able to support it just using the current SRD and I didnt think they would do that. Plus, I also figured that even if they "closed up" 4e, which I didnt have any evidence they would do, I figured Necro has been a good caretaker of the content with which we have been entrusted and we would perhaps be able to get some license or ability to support 4.

2. I saw the alternative of 3.75 as superior to staying with 3.5, but still in the end not a great long term solution.

So 3.75 is not a pipe dream. We could do it if we wanted. And it would be marginally successful. More successful than staying 3.5. In fact, staying 3.5 would be death. That is the least viable alternative. In a funny way, the way the situation has played out is that if WotC doesnt help us embrace 4e launch they are actually encouraging us to create a competing rules product and port our fans to that product. It might not be a super viable long term solution, but it is MORE viable than not being a part of 4e launch and doing nothing or staying with 3.5. Wierd.

THAT SAID, I STILL REALLY REALLY REALLY WANT 4E TO RULE, I BELIEVE IT WILL RULE AND I WANT TO BE THERE SUPPORTING IT. THIS IS WHAT I WANT, please dont misunderstand me. Nothing here is to be construed as critical of WotC. I am merely going through, for you, the thought process of the president of a d20 company (me and mine) in considering the options as 4e looms.

Not a pipe dream at all. (but I will credit you that I may not be taking your comment as you meant it. If you are saying 3.75 is a pipe dream as the best long term strategy, I agree with you. but it is the second best strategy and, depending on what wotc does, it might be the ONLY strategy, and if that is the case it is not a pipe dream it may well happen).

Clark

 

[Orcus]

I'll admit, the Paizo decision is big to me. If they get stuck having to stay 3.5 and then go 3.75 for the next adventure path, that is surely going to impact my decision on what to do with Necro.

I dont want to speak for Erik. I used the words "get stuck" to reflect MY feeling, not his. He can chime in as he pleases. I dont want to get stuck. I want to go 4e. I see that as the future both from a philosophical sense for Necro and for a business sense.

But if Paizo doesnt go 4e, man that would really make me think long and hard.

Clark