D&D 4E Paizo and 4e - Vive le Revolution!

[Nellisir]

Perhaps, but most of the best adventure writing for 3.X did not come out of WotC, but out of other parties.

Hardly a fair comparison, since WotC intentionally got out of the adventure business for a number of years. It might also be worth noting that nearly all the "best" adventures came from only two companies, Necromancer and Goodman Games.

I've got more GR material than I have from WotC

That right there puts you in the far minority of gamers. My "circle" of gamers is probably 20 strong, and of those 20, maybe 3 will consider buying non-WotC products. 2 might buy pdf products. At least half own no more than 3 d20/D&D books altogether (everyone owns the PH; some supplement with a Complete or Expanded Psi, for instance).

I guess I have trouble understanding how you could be very cognizant of WotC's current designs philosophies as they're executed, given that you'v admitted tonot buying most of their stuff (I love Green Ronin, but their product pile is seriously smaller than D&D).

There is definately room for a 3.75 updating of the rules. How about let's call it the 'Advanced Edition'.

I wouldn't buy a "tweak" of 3.5. I might buy a serious Paizo/Green Ronin/Necromancer 3.5 rules overhaul, but it wouldn't be 3.75, it'd be 4e-B. Or Earth-4e, or something. And a different subset of people would complain about it just like they're complaining about 4e.

 

[Anguish]

1} I'm a subscriber to Paizo's Gamemastery and Pathfinder products.
2} I'm a long-time fan of Necromancer's products.

That being said, I won't use any so-called 3.75e materials from either company. If I'm going to learn another rule-set, even a variant, it's going to be 4e. Period.

So. If either or both companies want to continue to produce 3.5e products, that's compatible with my world. I can play 3.5e. I can run an "old rules" one-shot or even campaign any time I like. If either or both companies shift to 4e, that too is compatible with my world. I'll certainly be looking at the 4e rules and probably adopt them. I can run a "new rules" game.

What I won't do is trot out a third set of rules at the game table. I would consider stopping my subscriptions for the time that Paizo and/or Necromancer were producing material I would need to convert to one of my two supported game platforms. Pre-built content is for DM convenience. Don't make my life harder by adding a third variant.

 

[catsclaw227]

Hardly a fair comparison, since WotC intentionally got out of the adventure business for a number of years. It might also be worth noting that nearly all the "best" adventures came from only two companies, Necromancer and Goodman Games.

I dunno, friend, 'cause I DMed some great adventures from Green Ronin and Malhavoc, and even though some mechanics were wonky, Mongoose had some cool ideas.

Also, there were some great adventure supplements from Mystic Eye games and their Foul Locales series, as well as the AEG adventures, which were compiled and updated to 3.5 with their books Adventure I and Adventure II. These were both pretty good. Troll Lord made some good adventures for 3.x as well. I have a few. Oh and (Living) Arcanis adventures were well written as well.

And we mustn't for get Paizo!

I guess I have trouble understanding how you could be very cognizant of WotC's current designs philosophies as they're executed, given that you'v admitted tonot buying most of their stuff (I love Green Ronin, but their product pile is seriously smaller than D&D).

I agree, but their impact and influence in the RPG community is not small. Granted, they DO have fewer d20 books than WOTC.

I wouldn't buy a "tweak" of 3.5. I might buy a serious Paizo/Green Ronin/Necromancer 3.5 rules overhaul, but it wouldn't be 3.75, it'd be 4e-B. Or Earth-4e, or something. And a different subset of people would complain about it just like they're complaining about 4e.

I agree with this as well.

Overall, your points are good and valid. I am a book collector so I am NOT representative of the the normal buying patterns. Most other players I know are like the ones in your group: a PHB and 2-3 other WOTC books, and rarely any 3rd party stuff.

 

[Celebrim]

And yet the 3.5 market is so dry that Green Ronin won't released Advanced Classes or Advanced Races as hardcovers as planned a long time ago.

I agree. The 3.5 well is dry because pretty much everything that can be published has been. People have more material than they need. People have more material than they'll ever use. Pretty much every niche topic has a pdf for it, if not a hardcover book.

Which is precisely why I think there is a market for going back and reimagining, reexaminging, and improving the core material to get the bugs out. Because, people are going to want to actually use all those books that they bought. People no longer need more splat books, accessories, etc (well, ok, I want a few more). What they need is those troublesome issues that plague thier day to day gaming ironed out.

I know why WotC needs a new edition. It's just that I don't need a new edition.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I agree. The 3.5 well is dry because pretty much everything that can be published has been. People have more material than they need. People have more material than they'll ever use. Pretty much every niche topic has a pdf for it, if not a hardcover book.

Which is precisely why I think there is a market for going back and reimagining, reexaminging, and improving the core material to get the bugs out. Because, people are going to want to actually use all those books that they bought. People no longer need more splat books, accessories, etc (well, ok, I want a few more). What they need is those troublesome issues that plague thier day to day gaming ironed out.

I know why WotC needs a new edition. It's just that I don't need a new edition.

And do you think that's 3.75 or 4e?

Personally, I doubt I'd buy a Tome of Horrors 3.75 no matter how great that book is simply because it's not going to be compaitble with 4e or 3.5 direclty and I've already got a 3.0 hardcover and a 3.5 PDF. It's going to have to be 4e or bust for me.

 

[Gundark]

While I think a 3.75 is a better choice then staying 3.5, I think its folly in the long term.

Is it better to go 3.75? I'm not so sure. Supposing they do a 3.75, what do you stick in it? What and how much do you change? How do you know you're not doing another version of 4.0? I don't know maybe they have the 3.75 changes in mind aready and all that is left is the playtesting.

Another problem which you touched on is how long do you support it? Do you switch to 4e after awhile.

Another problem with a 3.75 is how much of the market would you get? A lot of the 3.5 grognards are saying something along the effect of "I have enough 3.5 stuff to last to 5e". If they aren't gonna go 4e what makes you think they'll go 3.75 (admittedly this would depend on how compatible 3.5 and 3.75 are)? Then you got the ones that'll be like "thanks but we're waiting for 4e". I think Morrus' claim about the sharp decline in sales since the 4e announcement is pretty telling.

Another problem is are people gonna like the changes you make? What if 3.75 hate springs up? "What they change rule x !?!?! That's it I'm not buying it!!"

To me it makes more sense to keep going 3.5 until you can switch to 4e

 

[Celebrim]

And do you think that's 3.75 or 4e?

Well, I know its not going to be 4e, which is pretty clearly going to be not backwards compatible to at least the extent 3e wasn't backwards compatible with 1e and from my impression even more so. So I could only hope for a good 3.75.

 

[Sunderstone]

Ideal situation....

Paizo, Necro, Goodman and others band together and create their own world/system.
Dungeons and Dragons from WotC 4E doesnt move well at all.
WotC doesnt profit anymore from the D&D brand due to the third party publishers new thing.
WotC sells the D&D brand.
One or all of the above buy the D&D brand.
D&D returns back to its roots.
The masses are happy once and for all.



"hey you never know"

 

[Gundark]

Well, I know its not going to be 4e, which is pretty clearly going to be not backwards compatible to at least the extent 3e wasn't backwards compatible with 1e and from my impression even more so. So I could only hope for a good 3.75.

And if you don't get a good 3.75?

 

[Celebrim]

And if you don't get a good 3.75?

I'll do my best to make my own.

It won't be the first time. I was on my own playing and playing '1.75' without real support from around the introduction of 2e to the mid 90's when I tried GURPS as a main system, before coming back for 3e.

If 2e changed to little, then 4e seems like it is changing to much. But even more to the point, neither system seems to have been developed with my game in mind, and both seem more about reducing my options and defining how I should play than giving more more options and tools to work with so I can choose how to play.