D&D 4E Paizo and 4e - Vive le Revolution!

[Gundark]

the MMORPG feel they are inferring.

For crying out loud....I wish, wish, wish that this idea would die. I get so tired of the arguement (generally from people who have never played a MMO) that 4e is becoming MMORPG-like. I have yet to see reasonable evidence to this effect.

 

[Gundark]

Doesnt that worry you a bit? Not so much for the the 3rd party products, becuase they set a hard release date and seem to be rushing it out the door....or at least thats how it appears....

I suspect they've been play-testing for quite some time. They've been developing since 2005. The playtest reports we're reading from WotC doesn't mean that they're the FIRST bit of playtesting that they've done in house.

 

[Gundark]

Games workshop.

Besides its own boneheaded decisions, they face competition. No single company can compete on their level. But they dont have to. If PP takes a small bit, then rackham takes one, then flames of war....and so on, its death by a thousand cuts.(not that they die, nor get toppled, but it can put a hurt on their bottom line....)

I think your comparison is flawed. Comparing GW to WotC is a bad analogy. I say this due to the general philosophy difference detween companies, and they way they interact with fans (I havn't seen a GW developer post in a forum or mailing list for quite some time). The level of care I've seen from WotC is FAR above that I've seen from GW for quite some time.

 

[Rechan]

For crying out loud....I wish, wish, wish that this idea would die. I get so tired of the arguement (generally from people who have never played a MMO) that 4e is becoming MMORPG-like. I have yet to see reasonable evidence to this effect.

If anything, D&D is an MMO by inception.

Go kill monsters to get xp to get loot and level up so you can kill more monsters to get XP and loot to kill more monsters...

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ideal situation....
*snip*
The masses are happy once and for all.

Or else.

 

[Reynard]

For crying out loud....I wish, wish, wish that this idea would die. I get so tired of the arguement (generally from people who have never played a MMO) that 4e is becoming MMORPG-like. I have yet to see reasonable evidence to this effect.

The reason people use the analogy is that they recognize a lot of the language that WotC themselves are using regarding characters, niches, powers and so on, as coming from MMOs. The geenral design philosophy -- things like refresh/recharge and power-bursts and the like -- make people think video games and MMOs, too. It is shorthand, generally speaking, for a style and design that semms to cater more to video-game and MMO fans.

The biggest problem with that short hand is that it is easy for a "4E defender" to dismiss or derail a complaint pointing out that "it isn't anything like an MMO" when they well know what it is shorthand for, and that doesn't invalidate the concerns and complaints.

 

[Glyfair]

I dunno, friend, 'cause I DMed some great adventures from Green Ronin and Malhavoc, and even though some mechanics were wonky, Mongoose had some cool ideas.

Also, there were some great adventure supplements from Mystic Eye games and their Foul Locales series, as well as the AEG adventures, which were compiled and updated to 3.5 with their books Adventure I and Adventure II. These were both pretty good. Troll Lord made some good adventures for 3.x as well. I have a few. Oh and (Living) Arcanis adventures were well written as well.

And we mustn't for get Paizo!

Atlas had some great adventures. In the beginning it seemed they put out one poor adventure alternating with one good adventure. Towards the end of their d20 publishing they seemed to have learned to avoid the bad ones.

Indeed, a couple of WotC regulars had Atlas as their early products. Mike Mearls put out a great adventure, In the Belly of the Beast and Keith Baker put out a good one in The Ebon Mirror.

 

[Glyfair]

However, it is very disconcerting that we haven't had any public announcement from WotC on when they will be getting materials out to other companies, especially after Necromancer, Paizo, Green Ronin, and Paradigm (among others) have all commented here with their concerns that they can't support 4e out of the gate without immediate action.

I believe it was stated quite a while ago that it would be January of next year (the exact comment might have been "by January of next year.")

 

[carmachu]

I don't believe that they are intentionally screwing the 3rd party developers. I think it is their intention, in fact to have healthy third party support. We know that they are all probably overloaded with work over there, and that's the most likely reason things have gone out.

Could very well be as you and Orcus said. Could also be the IP lawyers upstairs holding things up, thinking that it can only help them if they hurt the third parties(I doubt its the game designers, who as orcus said, rock). The problem is.....release date is may and we dont know. Its frustrating.

However, it is very disconcerting that we haven't had any public announcement from WotC on when they will be getting materials out to other companies, especially after Necromancer, Paizo, Green Ronin, and Paradigm (among others) have all commented here with their concerns that they can't support 4e out of the gate without immediate action.

Actually, I'm more worried about where the OGL is. I mean they said they were going to continue it.....but its no where to be found as of yet. I know my favorite 3rd party companies need the materials.....but without an OGL of some sort.....

The lack of good third party support, even the smallest possibility that we will have a market segmentation, should scare the pants off of everyone. I would really love to see Scott or someone comment publicly, in this thread or at wizards.com, to let us know what their support plans actually are, and when we'll see some headway on implementing them.

*nods* They have enough bad will out there that this is just one more flash point. It be nice to see something instead of rampant specualtion.

 

[Rechan]

The reason people use the analogy is that they recognize a lot of the language that WotC themselves are using regarding characters, niches, powers and so on, as coming from MMOs. The geenral design philosophy -- things like refresh/recharge and power-bursts and the like -- make people think video games and MMOs, too. It is shorthand, generally speaking, for a style and design that semms to cater more to video-game and MMO fans.

The biggest problem with that short hand is that it is easy for a "4E defender" to dismiss or derail a complaint pointing out that "it isn't anything like an MMO" when they well know what it is shorthand for, and that doesn't invalidate the concerns and complaints.

And the problem also comes when those who say "It's like a video game" ignore the fact that D&D all ready has those aspects to it. Sure, we don't call them refresh/recharge and power-bursts, but they are PRESENT.

Per encounter/per day abilities? The barbarian's rage is a per-day ability, but eventually he can rage with enough frequency that it's a per-encounter ability. The Monk's Stunning Fist, the Cleric's Turn Undead, etc, are per-day abilities.

Spell-like abilities are another example. 3e monsters have At Will, 3/day and 1/day Spell-likes. Meanwhile, supernatural abilities are often per encounter abilities - The Dragon's breath has a recharge of 1d4 rounds. There are many abilities (like the Harpy's song) that if you succeed, you are Immune for the day; that's a per encounter ability, even if it can do it the whole encounter, it's only got one shot at being effective against you.

Hell, it reminds me of my most recent player experience. The party walks in, finds the first guard post, kicks it in, spends two spells and a wildshape usage killing the guards... and the PCs just set up camp in the guard shack for 8 hours. Meanwhile, the entire complex is buckling down for the coming fight. The party honestly intended to explore the compound for several days, resting periodically in the badguys hideout. That's... utterly, utterly silly. Who drops a tent in the middle of the Baron's castle for a nap?

"We used an ounce of our resources, let's rest" is very video-gamey.