D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.

[Minicol]

But had nothing to do with the merits of the product itself, which is the implication people try to lay on it when they call 4e the "New Coke of D&D." They're trying to imply that it's a bad product, when in fact the implication is that grognards will reject it simply because it's new (which is what happened to New Coke).

If people want to use soft drink analogies to call 4e a substandard product, then I'd suggest calling it the "Crystal Pepsi of D&D," since that drink failed on it's merits.

Not because it's new. Because :
1 It's not what we want
2 It's not what we needed
3 It fails to address the issues we had with the game before
4 The communication has been so unfriendly towards us that even if it were the best game ever published I would not want to be a part of it.

So whether it's good or bad is fairly irrelevant to me and my group at this stage.

 

[The Little Raven]

3 It fails to address the issues we had with the game before

So, while most people in your position complain about the lack of information, you claim to have enough to know that it doesn't address issues that people have with the game (despite them pointing out several of those well-known issues as key things to work on)?

4 The communication has been so unfriendly towards us that even if it were the best game ever published I would not want to be a part of it.

Unfriendly? Did a miss a blog post where Mike Mearls called you names or something? Or is this just you turning "I don't get as much information I want" into "They're being unfriendly" for some odd reason?

 

[Glyfair]

Ok, first of all, that right there is why Paizo is so cool.

But the larger point is that I think you guys should just define your own bard, just as you did with goblins, own it, and make it stick.

Who cares what the "official" bard is at that point?

I'd recommend calling it something else (say, the "minstrel"). That way when WotC does the bard they can exist side by side without causing confusion.

Still, how many ranger variations were created for 3E?

 

[Glyfair]

A fact: New Coke consistently beats Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reason it failed? Coke grognards.

There is also the theory that New Coke does great in taste tests, but people prefer the taste of Coke over the long term (some things you don't like over the long term).

The fact is that the overall situation has so many variables that the exact weight each has. IMO, that situation applies here.

 

[amethal]

There is also the theory that New Coke does great in taste tests, but people prefer the taste of Coke over the long term (some things you don't like over the long term).

The fact is that the overall situation has so many variables that the exact weight each has. IMO, that situation applies here.

Can we have some kind of Godwin's second law, that any time change is discussed on the internet then New Coke will be mentioned within the first five posts.

Coke has nothing to do with D&D.

 

[Glyfair]

Can we have some kind of Godwin's second law, that any time change is discussed on the internet then New Coke will be mentioned within the first five posts.

Coke has nothing to do with D&D.

This came up in another discussion not too long ago. While the comparison of a drink & a game isn't very good, the social aspects are comparable (such as a vocal minority having an influence on the perception of the success of a product).

 

[Minicol]

So, while most people in your position complain about the lack of information, you claim to have enough to know that it doesn't address issues that people have with the game (despite them pointing out several of those well-known issues as key things to work on)?

Unfriendly? Did a miss a blog post where Mike Mearls called you names or something? Or is this just you turning "I don't get as much information I want" into "They're being unfriendly" for some odd reason?

Well, I don't share the opinions of everybody. Most may complain, but to me the level of information is quite enough already to tell me that no : I don't like 4e. Even though, I will even agree that I could like some parts of it (such as diplomacy challenges). I do not necessarily align myself with everybody on every matter.

If I may expand a bit more, I do not care too much about the changes to characters classes, or the general rules system. I do care about dropping Vancian magic, I do care about changes to monsters, I do care about trashing the FR, and abandoning the Great Wheel. Why ? Because the assumptions I built my games upon for so many years are going away. It's a change of philosophy. And I don't like it. It's not the D&D I loved, whatever it is now.

And I loved what I had. And I have no intent of converting anything I liked just because there is a new edition.

For the unfriendly part, I will say that being a RPGA member, I have gamed in a fairly large number of groups. When you play with a great many people, you will meet some you like, and some you don't. After all, everybody has a different approach to the game.

And the reactions of some 4e fans over this forum (not everybody mind you, I am not putting everybody in the same wagon), have reminded me a lot of some very unpleasant games I had with the RPGA.

Unpleasant, as in rules-lawyerish, we don't care about the game, we don't care about the adventure, we do not care wasting hours of other people time checking the books over a rules point. All we care is our new shiny new system, and all the rest can go to hell in a handbasket. And don't argue with us, because WE have the ultimate truth. It seems some people have taken an almost religious approach over this, and I find it creepy.

This is my feeling about 4e, and no, whatever it is, I still do not want any part in it.

And what will happen in my case, is that if my favourites D20 companies (Paizo, Paradigm, GR) switch to 4e, I will keep buying, and convert everything to 3.5 when I use it.

I fully understand if you enjoy yourself in 4e, and I wish you all the best. More power to you !

But it won't happen in my case.

 

[The Little Raven]

I do care about dropping Vancian magic,

How many times does it need to be stated that this is false? Vancian magic remains as the core spellcasting gimmick of the wizard's per-day spells. It's simply that per-day spells are no longer the only thing they have.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

There is also the theory that New Coke does great in taste tests, but people prefer the taste of Coke over the long term (some things you don't like over the long term).

The fact is that the overall situation has so many variables that the exact weight each has. IMO, that situation applies here.

There's this thing I do where I find a new flavour. One day it's halva, another day it's turkish delight, the next it's wasabi peas, and even later on, a particular brand of rice pudding. I eat it like crazy because it's awesome. After a while though, I just can't eat it any more. I'm totally bored with it, and I might never eat it again. When I think about eating it, years later, I feel bored.

Coke never does that to me. It's always good. Sometimes I'm not in the mood for it, but I never think to myself, "I just can't bear to drink another coke."

So maybe you're on to something.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Can we have some kind of Godwin's second law, that any time change is discussed on the internet then New Coke will be mentioned within the first five posts.

Coke has nothing to do with D&D.

We already have that. It concerns mention of the words "video games" in any discussion of RPGs.