• COMING SOON! -- The Awfully Cheerful Engine on Kickstarter! An action comedy RPG inspired by cheerful tabletop games of the 80s! With a foreword by Sandy 'Ghostbusters' Petersen, and VTT support!
log in or register to remove this ad

 

Pathfinder 2E Paizo Announces Pathfinder 2nd Edition!

Paizo has just announced the Second Edition of its Pathfinder Roleplaying Game! Read on for the announcement straight from the horse's mouth. The horse, in this case, being Pathfinder designer Jason Bulmahn. "In 2008, Paizo launched an unprecedented public playtest aimed at updating the third edition rules to make them more fun, easier to learn, and better able to support thrilling fantasy adventures. More than 40,000 gamers just like you joined in the fun by playtesting the new Pathfinder RPG rules and providing feedback, and the rest is gaming history. Now, 10 years later, it's time to put the lessons of the last decade to use and evolve the game once again. It's time for Pathfinder Second Edition!"


PlaytestRulebook.png


Welcome to the next evolution of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!

Just shy of 10 years ago, on March 18th, 2008, we asked you to take a bold step with us and download the Alpha Playtest PDF for Pathfinder First Edition. Over the past decade, we've learned a lot about the game and the people who play it. We've talked with you on forums, we've gamed with you at conventions, and we've watched you play online and in person at countless venues. We went from updating mechanics to inventing new ones, adding a breadth of options to the game and making the system truly our own. We've made mistakes, and we've had huge triumphs. Now it is time to take all of that knowledge and make the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game even better.

By now, you've probably read all about the upcoming launch of the Playtest version of the game set to release on August 2nd, 2018 (but just in case you haven't, click here). In the weeks and months leading up to that release, we are going give you an in-depth look at this game, previewing all 12 of the classes and examining many of the most fundamental changes to the game. Of course, that is a long time to wait to get a complete picture, so I wanted to take this opportunity to give you insight into the game, how it works, and why we made the changes that we made. We will be covering these in much more detail later, but we thought it might be useful to give a general overview right now.



Illustration by Wayne Reynolds​
[h=2]New, but the Same[/h]Our first goal was to make Pathfinder Second Edition feel just like the game you know and love. That means that as a player, you need to be able to make the choices that allow you to build the character you want to play. Similarly, as a Game Master, you need to have the tools and the support to tell the story you want to tell. The rules that make up the game have to fundamentally still fill the same role they did before, even if some of the mechanics behind them are different.
[h=2]Building a Character[/h]It's worth taking a moment to talk about how characters are built, because we spent a lot of time making this process smoother and more intuitive. You start by selecting your ancestry (which used to be called race), figuring out where you came from and what sorts of basic statistics you have. Next you decide on your background, representing how you were raised and what you did before taking up the life of an adventurer. Finally, you select your class, the profession you have dedicated yourself to as an intrepid explorer. Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

After making the big choices that define your character, you have a variety of smaller choices to make, including assigning skill proficiencies, picking an ancestry feat, buying gear, and deciding on the options presented by your class. Finally, after deciding on all of your choices, the only thing left to do is figure out all of your bonuses, which are now determined by one unified system of proficiency, based on your character's level.

As you go on grand adventures with your character, you will gain experience and eventually level up. Pathfinder characters have exciting and important choices to make every time they gain a level, from selecting new class feats to adding new spells to their repertoires.
[h=2]Playing the Game[/h]We've made a number of changes to the way the game is played, to clean up the overall flow of play and to add some interesting choices in every part of the story. First up, we have broken play up into three distinct components. Encounter mode is what happens when you are in a fight, measuring time in seconds, each one of which can mean life or death. Exploration mode is measured in minutes and hours, representing travel and investigation, finding traps, decoding ancient runes, or even mingling at the queen's coronation ball. Of all the modes of play, exploration is the most flexible, allowing for easy storytelling and a quick moving narrative. Finally, the downtime mode happens when your characters are back in town, or relative safety, allowing them to retrain abilities, practice a trade, lead an organization, craft items, or recuperate from wounds. Downtime is measured in days, generally allowing time to flow by in an instant.

Most of the game happens in exploration or encounter mode, with the two types of play flowing easily from one to the other. In fact, exploration mode can have a big impact on how combat begins, determining what you roll for your initiative. In a group of four exploring a dungeon, two characters might have their weapons ready, keeping an eye out for danger. Another might be skulking ahead, keeping to the shadows, while the fourth is looking for magic. If combat begins, the first two begin with their weapons drawn, ready for a fight, and they roll Perception for their initiative. The skulking character rolls Stealth for initiative, giving them a chance to hide before the fight even begins. The final adventurer rolls Perception for initiative, but also gains some insight as to whether or not there is magic in the room.

After initiative is sorted out and it's your turn to act, you get to take three actions on your turn, in any combination. Gone are different types of actions, which can slow down play and add confusion at the table. Instead, most things, like moving, attacking, or drawing a weapon, take just one action, meaning that you can attack more than once in a single turn! Each attack after the first takes a penalty, but you still have a chance to score a hit. In Pathfinder Second Edition, most spells take two actions to cast, but there are some that take only one. Magic missile, for example, can be cast using from one to three actions, giving you an additional missile for each action you spend on casting it!
Between turns, each character also has one reaction they can take to interrupt other actions. The fighter, for example, has the ability to take an attack of opportunity if a foe tries to move past or its defenses are down. Many classes and monsters have different things they can do with their reactions, making each combat a little bit less predictable and a lot more exciting. Cast a fire spell near a red dragon, for example, and you might just find it takes control of your magic, roasting you and your friends instead of the intended target!
[h=2]Monsters and Treasure[/h]The changes to the game are happening on both sides of the GM screen. Monsters, traps, and magic items have all gotten significant revisions.

First off, monsters are a lot easier to design. We've moved away from strict monster construction formulas based off type and Hit Dice. Instead, we start by deciding on the creature's rough level and role in the game, then select statistics that make it a balanced and appropriate part of the game. Two 7th-level creatures might have different statistics, allowing them to play differently at the table, despite both being appropriate challenges for characters of that level.

This also makes it easier for us to present monsters, giving us more space to include special abilities and actions that really make a monster unique. Take the fearsome tyrannosaurus, for example; if this terrifying dinosaur gets you in its jaws, it can take an action to fling you up to 20 feet through the air, dealing tremendous damage to you in the process!

Hazards are now a more important part of the game, from rangers creating snares to traps that you have to actively fight against if you want to survive. Poisons, curses, and diseases are a far more serious problem to deal with, having varied effects that can cause serious penalties, or even death.

Of all of the systems that Game Masters interact with, magic items are one of the most important, so we spent extra time ensuring that they are interesting and fun. First and foremost, we have taken significant steps to allow characters to carry the items they want, instead of the items that they feel they must have to succeed. Good armor and a powerful weapon are still critical to the game, but you no longer have to carry a host of other smaller trinkets to boost up your saving throws or ability scores. Instead, you find and make the magic items that grant you cool new things to do during play, giving you the edge against all of the monsters intent on making you into their next meal.
We can't wait until you find your first +1 longsword to see what it can do!
[h=2]What's Next?[/h]There are a lot of things we are excited to show off, so many in fact that we have to pace ourselves. First off, if you want to hear the game in action right now, we've recorded a special podcast with the folks from the Glass Cannon Network, converting the original Pathfinder First Edition Module, Crypt of the Everflame, to the new edition. Head on over to their site and listen to the first part of this adventure now!
Stop by tomorrow for the first blog taking an in-depth look at Pathfinder Second Edition, starting off with the new system for taking actions, then visit us again on Friday for an exploration of the Glass Cannon game, exploring some of its spoilers in detail!
[h=2]We Need You![/h]All of us at Paizo want to take a moment to thank you, the fans, players, and game masters that have made this exciting journey a possibility. It's been a wild ride for the past decade, and speaking personally, I could not be more excited for where we are heading. But, as I am sure you've heard a number of times already, we cannot make this game without you, without your feedback and passion for the game. Thank you for coming with us on this adventure, thank you for contributing to our community, and thank you for playing Pathfinder.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design
[h=2]Pathfinder Playtest Features[/h]The new Pathfinder Playtest rules are the first step in the evolution to the new edition. We have incorporated the best innovations and lessons of the last 10 years to move the game forward in new and exciting ways. As we count down the days to the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook release, we'll be revealing more information on the following topics (and more!) on the Paizo blog:

  • 10th-Level Spells and 4 Spell Lists
  • Alchemists in Core
  • Archetypes and Multiclassing
  • Class Changes
  • Classic Monsters and Magic
  • Clean, Modular Information-Based Design
  • Combat Maneuvers that Rock
  • Designed for All Levels of Play
  • Easier to Play
  • Goblin Player Characters
  • Golarion-Infused
  • Heroic Storytelling
  • Innovative Initiative
  • More Customization
  • New Background System
  • Pathfinder Society
  • Production Values
  • Race Changes and Feats
  • Rebalanced Magic Items
  • Simplified Actions
  • Streamlined Proficiencies
  • Support
  • True to Pathfinder
  • Wayne Reynolds Art

[h=2]Compatibility?[/h]The big question -- backwards compatibility? Paizo says "While many of the rules of the game have changed, much of what made Pathfinder great has remained the same. The story of the game is unchanged, and in many cases, you can simply replace the old rules with their new counterpart without having to alter anything else about the adventure. As for individual rules, like your favorite spell or monster, most can be added with a simple conversion, changing a few numbers and rebalancing some of the mechanics."
[h=2]Pathfinder Playtest Products[/h]All Pathfinder Playtest products will be released as FREE downloads exclusively at paizo.com on August 2, 2018. On the same day, we'll release limited-edition print versions of the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, Pathfinder Playtest Adventure, and Pathfinder Playtest Flip-Mat Multi-Pack for players and Game Masters seeking the ultimate playtest experience. These print editions will be available for preorder from local retailers now and paizo.com between March 20 and May 1. We'll also have copies at the Paizo booth during Gen Con 2018 in Indianapolis on August 2–5.
[h=4]Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook[/h]This massive 400-page rulebook contains everything you need to create characters and run Pathfinder Playtest adventures from levels 1–20! With gorgeous new illustrations by Wayne Reynolds, the Playtest Rulebook lights the path leading directly to Pathfinder's future. Available in three editions: softcover, hardcover, and deluxe hardcover with foil-debossed faux-leather cover and ribbon bookmark.
[h=4]Pathfinder Playtest Adventure: Doomsday Dawn[/h]This 96-page super-adventure contains seven multi-encounter scenarios designed to introduce the new rules and put them to the ultimate test on your game table! With adventures spanning all 20 levels and featuring most of the game's newest rules, Doomsday Dawn provides a thrilling tour of the new rules, and of the Pathfinder world itself!
[h=4]Pathfinder Playtest Flip-Mat Multi-Pack[/h]Throw your heroes into the action with this collection of two double-sided Flip-Mats for use with the Playtest Adventure. These beautiful full-color maps measure 24" x 30" unfolded and set the scene for climactic battles that will determine the future of Pathfinder! The maps' erasable surface can handle and dry-erase, wet-erase, or even permanent markers.
[FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT]
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

CubicsRube

Adventurer
Supporter
[MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] I know you just consolidated all the non-5e D&D sub forums into a neat little package, but you might consider a new one for Pathfinder 2. It's gonna be a hot topic for a while, and likely to become the "other" active and current D&D game.

Agreed
 

log in or register to remove this ad


oknazevad

Explorer
@Morrus I know you just consolidated all the non-5e D&D sub forums into a neat little package, but you might consider a new one for Pathfinder 2. It's gonna be a hot topic for a while, and likely to become the "other" active and current D&D game.

I agree with this idea. Merging in Pathfinder with the older editions of D&D makes sense if it's just PF1 which is really just a patched over 3.5, but since PF2 is going to be its own thing, it should probably be split back out. And Starfinder was always a bit of a poor fit there anyway, so a separate "Pathfinder and Starfinder" area (that includes both editions of PF) makes the most sense.

Edit to add: I see what you're saying about board traffic, but I expect there to be an upswing of discussion on this matter, and being ahead of that curve could be seen as having strong foresight. Plus if you do include Starfinder, it'll bolster the section as well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

GreyLord

Hero
I voiced it previously that I didn't want them combined...but was too late to the party that time.

Of course, including PF here does spark up the volume and use of this forum (which is pretty slow at times), which probably helps this forum move along.

Still like D&D and PF to be separate.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
I make my forum decisions based on actual traffic. A dozen threads does not a forum make. Show me a thousand threads and I’ll consider it.
Well that's your call. I'm not telling you how to run things, obviously. It may take a little time but I think a thousand threads is an eventuality. If it's just as easy to move and manipulate a thousand threads as it is a dozen, more power to you.
 


Henry

Autoexreginated
I think you’re just flat wrong on every part of this, except where you say that it’s better than it was.

I concur, as our group’s years of playing 5e have shown us that the non-casters have just as much to contribute in combat, exploration, and social outcomes. We have two full casters currently and next to the halfling barbarian, he’s an unstoppable killing machine that takes half damage from everything in his path, and we just let him have his way. :) out of combat he contributes through both skills such as survival, as ell as intimidation of foes. Just because they’re skills doesn’t make them useless.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Well that's your call. I'm not telling you how to run things, obviously. It may take a little time but I think a thousand threads is an eventuality. If it's just as easy to move and manipulate a thousand threads as it is a dozen, more power to you.

I'll tell you what. This is all the threads tagged PF2 so far:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/forumd...rune=-1&sort=lastpost&prefixid=pf2&order=desc

I can move all threads with a single tag with two clicks, so it makes no difference if it's one or ten thousand. But what I'll say is this -- if that hits 100 threads from people other than me (I'm doing a daily new summary which appears there, but that doesn't count!), I'll seriously consider moving it to its own forum.
 

ehren37

Explorer
Hey [MENTION=31506]ehren37[/MENTION] I read your response in my email notifications, and you have good points. I hope you’ll respond to my more positive comment and engage in a dialogue about how to actually address the issue without making one type of class suck to play.

I will say this, though, as a general note: it’s not about power, at least on my end. I don’t even play full caster classes like the wizard, pretty much ever. Last time I did was my first 3e character, a half-elf Cleric.

It’s about the actual abilities being fun to use during actual play. That is my #1 priority, and IMO should be the top priority of any game designer. Even above balance, though balance is a quite close second.

IME, casters in 5e dnd simply don’t dominate out of combat. Their spells are limited use, and rarely trivialize actual skills, and rogues are vastly better at skill use than they are. Even the bard falls behind the rogue in skill use. The problem is usually the fighter specifically, which is rarely allowed to have nice things, but even then many fighter archetypes are very good, and they and rogues will generally kill the big threat more easily than the wizard in fights, as well.

Your concerns match my exp with 3.5 and PF, but not all with 5e.

Yeah, I deleted my response because I was being snarky and it wasn't needed, then I just got tied up over the weekend.

To me, there's never going to be parity with how easy magic is to use in D&D unless they really ramp up what you can do with skills, and then exclude full casters from that. Real life world records should be shattered by around 3rd to 5th level, and we move into superheroics around 9th level for non-full casters. A 15th level fighter needs to look a lot more like Thor than Captain America, even before magic items are factored in (since they arent chosen by the player). This will require some narrative effects, which the sim crowd will whine about. Effectively mind reading with insight, charm with bluff/persuade, finding out secrets you can't obtain through divination with investigation checks, etc. Currently there are no skill actions that a non-caster can take that a caster cannot also take. That needs to change, unless we're also going to let fighters make an ability check to cast spells. Martials need effects specifically silod off for them. After all, casting spells should come at an opportunity cost, otherwise everyone in the D&D world would be doing it. 4E was the only time there was remotely parity in out of combat. IMO, casters still rule 5E simply because they get magic on top of the things a martial can do. Most days do not have 6-8 encounters to drain spells, and casters rule those. If you have a month of downtime, the caster can change the world a lot more than the non-casting member of the party through summons, fabricate, mind-effects etc. So we should probably have more martial specific downtime and assume that magical study eats up more of their free time.

I personally don't see the problem with having to spam cantrips or low level spells a few rounds to dump a big effect. That's ALL the fighter/rogue does, and they have no big effect. Just stab, stab stab with no major payoff. It balances the low encounter day, which is a real DMing headache, and allows a niche of "fight ender" at the cost of not being frontloaded in a battle. Sadly I doubt they'll make any real effort to balance or tone down the insanity of 3E/PF caster favoritism. Would probably just be easier to remove non-casters from PC options at this point and just be honest about what the game is, like Mage and Ars Magica. Let everyone control a "real" character (caster) and a few non-caster chumps. Because what we have now is Doc Strange adventuring with Faramir and Pippin.
 

ehren37

Explorer
I concur, as our group’s years of playing 5e have shown us that the non-casters have just as much to contribute in combat, exploration, and social outcomes. We have two full casters currently and next to the halfling barbarian, he’s an unstoppable killing machine that takes half damage from everything in his path, and we just let him have his way. :) out of combat he contributes through both skills such as survival, as ell as intimidation of foes. Just because they’re skills doesn’t make them useless.

Everyone gets skills though, and outside of expertise, noncasters aren't any better at using them. That needs to change. Casters should have a much lower proficiency modifier (since they're learning how to cast, which presumably takes time). The barbarian has the same number of skills as the caster, yet no spells. If he contributes equally, that's on the players, not the class.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yeah, I deleted my response because I was being snarky and it wasn't needed, then I just got tied up over the weekend.

To me, there's never going to be parity with how easy magic is to use in D&D unless they really ramp up what you can do with skills, and then exclude full casters from that. Real life world records should be shattered by around 3rd to 5th level, and we move into superheroics around 9th level for non-full casters. A 15th level fighter needs to look a lot more like Thor than Captain America, even before magic items are factored in (since they arent chosen by the player). This will require some narrative effects, which the sim crowd will whine about. Effectively mind reading with insight, charm with bluff/persuade, finding out secrets you can't obtain through divination with investigation checks, etc. Currently there are no skill actions that a non-caster can take that a caster cannot also take. That needs to change, unless we're also going to let fighters make an ability check to cast spells. Martials need effects specifically silod off for them. After all, casting spells should come at an opportunity cost, otherwise everyone in the D&D world would be doing it. 4E was the only time there was remotely parity in out of combat. IMO, casters still rule 5E simply because they get magic on top of the things a martial can do. Most days do not have 6-8 encounters to drain spells, and casters rule those. If you have a month of downtime, the caster can change the world a lot more than the non-casting member of the party through summons, fabricate, mind-effects etc. So we should probably have more martial specific downtime and assume that magical study eats up more of their free time.

I personally don't see the problem with having to spam cantrips or low level spells a few rounds to dump a big effect. That's ALL the fighter/rogue does, and they have no big effect. Just stab, stab stab with no major payoff. It balances the low encounter day, which is a real DMing headache, and allows a niche of "fight ender" at the cost of not being frontloaded in a battle. Sadly I doubt they'll make any real effort to balance or tone down the insanity of 3E/PF caster favoritism. Would probably just be easier to remove non-casters from PC options at this point and just be honest about what the game is, like Mage and Ars Magica. Let everyone control a "real" character (caster) and a few non-caster chumps. Because what we have now is Doc Strange adventuring with Faramir and Pippin.

Man, there’s so much I disagree with here it’s hard to know where to even start.

Martials get plenty of payoff, in 5e. PF improves on 3.5, but not enough in that regard.

In 5e, fighters and rogues kill enemies much more quickly than almost any caster. Barbarians are right there with them, while being much harder to kill than anyone else.

By the time you can throw Finger of Death around, the martials can gank big tough monsters *at will*, and are less likely to get knocked down in the process.

While the wizard can lay down big control effects, damn near none of them can be mainained with concentration, and none of them *kill the biggest threat in the room*, which is what the rogue is doing while the wizard sweeps up *trash mobs* with a blizzard or whatever. Seriously, man, 5e runs very different from what you’re saying, and the frog adds still love it. PF can move further in that direction, too. Without saying, “wizards get no skills”.

Now, fighters and barbarians should also get more skills in 5e/skill points in PF. Absolutely. But no, I’m not willing to support making caster suck at even the skills they are trained in. 0% chance.

Maybe fighters and barbarians should also get an expertise, from a shorter list than rogues, I’d be fine with that.

But for the wizard to outshine the rogue out of combat...know what, no, that just flat out isn’t a thing. Even spending a bunch of spells, the wizard simply can not bypass traps like a rogue, survive traps like a rogue, get help from the king like a rogue (charm spells make enemies), nor do whatever the rogue is specialized in (subclass stuff) as well as the rogue.

The wizard can force open doors while alerting everyone in a mile to the sound, fly with concentration and thus the risk of falling to death, jump pretty well for a turn, or run really fast for a minute or whatever. At the cost of a spell. It doesn’t take 6-8 encounters to make it a bad idea to burn those slots regularly, or to prepare all those spells every day.
 

Currently there are no skill actions that a non-caster can take that a caster cannot also take.
Wizards don't stop being humanoids when they start being wizards. It's not like your arms and legs fall off as soon as you learn to cast spells.

Currently, a low-level fighter can successfully beat an ogre to death with just their sword, and a rogue can successfully find and disable traps that a wizard can't try to disable. Wizards can't Power Attack, or Lunge, or use any other abilities that are gated behind feats which they don't meet the pre-requisites for. Rogues literally have an exclusive ability to find and remove magical traps, which nobody else can attempt.

Don't get me wrong. The balancing act where a wizard is supposed to have a handful of tricks per day and is otherwise a sub-standard fighter is not working, in any edition other than 4E or Basic, but that doesn't mean the solution is in turning the fighter into Superman. It just means there needs to be better balance. A starting point would be cutting down the number of spell slots, and reducing the scope of many spells. Turn those wizards from Doctor Strange into the MCU version of Scarlet Witch, where she actually is roughly on par with Captain America.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Wizards don't stop being humanoids when they start being wizards. It's not like your arms and legs fall off as soon as you learn to cast spells.

Currently, a low-level fighter can successfully beat an ogre to death with just their sword, and a rogue can successfully find and disable traps that a wizard can't try to disable. Wizards can't Power Attack, or Lunge, or use any other abilities that are gated behind feats which they don't meet the pre-requisites for. Rogues literally have an exclusive ability to find and remove magical traps, which nobody else can attempt.

Don't get me wrong. The balancing act where a wizard is supposed to have a handful of tricks per day and is otherwise a sub-standard fighter is not working, in any edition other than 4E or Basic, but that doesn't mean the solution is in turning the fighter into Superman. It just means there needs to be better balance. A starting point would be cutting down the number of spell slots, and reducing the scope of many spells. Turn those wizards from Doctor Strange into the MCU version of Scarlet Witch, where she actually is roughly on par with Captain America.
I don't know enough about basic to comment intelligently... what made it balanced in that edition?

I think, of the editions I am familiar with, that 5e has done the best so far. I will take your word for 4e.

In other games incidentally, the balance was achieved in part by having casters have a much narrower focus. You are a fire mage? Cool! ... but not very good at teleportation, illusions etc ...
 


ehren37

Explorer
Wizards don't stop being humanoids when they start being wizards. It's not like your arms and legs fall off as soon as you learn to cast spells.

Currently, a low-level fighter can successfully beat an ogre to death with just their sword, and a rogue can successfully find and disable traps that a wizard can't try to disable. Wizards can't Power Attack, or Lunge, or use any other abilities that are gated behind feats which they don't meet the pre-requisites for. Rogues literally have an exclusive ability to find and remove magical traps, which nobody else can attempt.

Don't get me wrong. The balancing act where a wizard is supposed to have a handful of tricks per day and is otherwise a sub-standard fighter is not working, in any edition other than 4E or Basic, but that doesn't mean the solution is in turning the fighter into Superman. It just means there needs to be better balance. A starting point would be cutting down the number of spell slots, and reducing the scope of many spells. Turn those wizards from Doctor Strange into the MCU version of Scarlet Witch, where she actually is roughly on par with Captain America.

Hey, my initial suggestion was to require casters take multiple rounds to cast spells, so you have me on board lol. Since that isnt going to happen, the alternative is to turn non-casters into supermen worthy to adventure alongside their caster companions. Either works for me honestly.
 

ehren37

Explorer
Man, there’s so much I disagree with here it’s hard to know where to even start.

Martials get plenty of payoff, in 5e. PF improves on 3.5, but not enough in that regard.

In 5e, fighters and rogues kill enemies much more quickly than almost any caster. Barbarians are right there with them, while being much harder to kill than anyone else.

By the time you can throw Finger of Death around, the martials can gank big tough monsters *at will*, and are less likely to get knocked down in the process.

While the wizard can lay down big control effects, damn near none of them can be mainained with concentration, and none of them *kill the biggest threat in the room*, which is what the rogue is doing while the wizard sweeps up *trash mobs* with a blizzard or whatever. Seriously, man, 5e runs very different from what you’re saying, and the frog adds still love it. PF can move further in that direction, too. Without saying, “wizards get no skills”.

Now, fighters and barbarians should also get more skills in 5e/skill points in PF. Absolutely. But no, I’m not willing to support making caster suck at even the skills they are trained in. 0% chance.

Maybe fighters and barbarians should also get an expertise, from a shorter list than rogues, I’d be fine with that.

But for the wizard to outshine the rogue out of combat...know what, no, that just flat out isn’t a thing. Even spending a bunch of spells, the wizard simply can not bypass traps like a rogue, survive traps like a rogue, get help from the king like a rogue (charm spells make enemies), nor do whatever the rogue is specialized in (subclass stuff) as well as the rogue.

The wizard can force open doors while alerting everyone in a mile to the sound, fly with concentration and thus the risk of falling to death, jump pretty well for a turn, or run really fast for a minute or whatever. At the cost of a spell. It doesn’t take 6-8 encounters to make it a bad idea to burn those slots regularly, or to prepare all those spells every day.

Why shouldnt casters suck at skills? If you have time to learn to do everything else AND cast, why are there classes that don't cast?

Your entire perspective seems to be only running a non-stop dungeon, so I guess that's where we diverge. The rogue gets traps (whoopty fart) and 1-2 more skills. And unlike spells, those are fixed. Wizards should always be the second choice for any action, because they have versatility on their side. Repicking your superpowers (let alone having them!) should come at a huge premium. You seem to want the swiss army knife to always be the best tool for the job.

People play casters in Savage World, where it costs the equivalent of a feat JUST to be able to learn magic, and one feat for each new spell learned. AND you have to roll to cast. AND if you roll poorly you suffer magical backlash. It's almost balanced!

Anyways, we arent going to convince each other, so take care.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Why shouldnt casters suck at skills? If you have time to learn to do everything else AND cast, why are there classes that don't cast?

Your entire perspective seems to be only running a non-stop dungeon, so I guess that's where we diverge. The rogue gets traps (whoopty fart) and 1-2 more skills. And unlike spells, those are fixed. Wizards should always be the second choice for any action, because they have versatility on their side. Repicking your superpowers (let alone having them!) should come at a huge premium. You seem to want the swiss army knife to always be the best tool for the job.

People play casters in Savage World, where it costs the equivalent of a feat JUST to be able to learn magic, and one feat for each new spell learned. AND you have to roll to cast. AND if you roll poorly you suffer magical backlash. It's almost balanced!

Anyways, we arent going to convince each other, so take care.

Making characters suck at a large facet of the game is bad design. Spells also don’t cover everything that skills can do, and even a caster that tries to use skills to shore up the gaps in what their spells can do, is going to have large gaps in their competency.

And no, I don’t assume non stop dungeons. I literally never use dungeons in 5e, and haven’t used one since about 2012 in one session of a 4e game.

My games spend much more time out of combat than in, and take place in towns and wilderness.

Skills are “fixed”, but are also much more broad. The “whoopsy-fart” is just immature, though, man. Come on.

And you or I may not be into dungeons, but most campaigns do use them, busting traps matters, and skills matter.

PF2 needs to handle some things differently, but making whole swathes of the game dramatically less fun for casters is just a bad way to do it.
 


... not much of an achievement in balancing is it? :D
If you follow the line through Expert and the rest of the acronym, wizards stay relatively balanced compared to their showing in later editions, primarily because the DM has absolute control over which spells they find. Even aside from that, they still have the basic constraints from AD&D - particularly in that spells are slow to cast, and taking any damage while casting causes you to lose the spell - so I feel like wizards would remain balanced during combat at least up until those restrictions were removed in 3E.

That still doesn't cover the out-of-combat disparity, though. If a wizard actually has a utility spell, and they get a chance to use it while nobody is throwing rocks at them, then the effect can be orders of magnitude beyond anything that anyone else gets. That aspects was really only balanced in Basic, and possibly Expert, simply because they stuck to low levels.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
If you follow the line through Expert and the rest of the acronym, wizards stay relatively balanced compared to their showing in later editions, primarily because the DM has absolute control over which spells they find. Even aside from that, they still have the basic constraints from AD&D - particularly in that spells are slow to cast, and taking any damage while casting causes you to lose the spell - so I feel like wizards would remain balanced during combat at least up until those restrictions were removed in 3E.

That still doesn't cover the out-of-combat disparity, though. If a wizard actually has a utility spell, and they get a chance to use it while nobody is throwing rocks at them, then the effect can be orders of magnitude beyond anything that anyone else gets. That aspects was really only balanced in Basic, and possibly Expert, simply because they stuck to low levels.
It's interesting that in 3e they removed a lot of constraints on the casters, only to rein them in somewhat in 5e... but then in 5e they removed a lot of contraints on the archers...
 

Visit Our Sponsor

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top