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Pathfinder 2E Paizo Announces Pathfinder 2nd Edition!

Paizo has just announced the Second Edition of its Pathfinder Roleplaying Game! Read on for the announcement straight from the horse's mouth. The horse, in this case, being Pathfinder designer Jason Bulmahn. "In 2008, Paizo launched an unprecedented public playtest aimed at updating the third edition rules to make them more fun, easier to learn, and better able to support thrilling fantasy adventures. More than 40,000 gamers just like you joined in the fun by playtesting the new Pathfinder RPG rules and providing feedback, and the rest is gaming history. Now, 10 years later, it's time to put the lessons of the last decade to use and evolve the game once again. It's time for Pathfinder Second Edition!"


PlaytestRulebook.png


Welcome to the next evolution of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!

Just shy of 10 years ago, on March 18th, 2008, we asked you to take a bold step with us and download the Alpha Playtest PDF for Pathfinder First Edition. Over the past decade, we've learned a lot about the game and the people who play it. We've talked with you on forums, we've gamed with you at conventions, and we've watched you play online and in person at countless venues. We went from updating mechanics to inventing new ones, adding a breadth of options to the game and making the system truly our own. We've made mistakes, and we've had huge triumphs. Now it is time to take all of that knowledge and make the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game even better.

By now, you've probably read all about the upcoming launch of the Playtest version of the game set to release on August 2nd, 2018 (but just in case you haven't, click here). In the weeks and months leading up to that release, we are going give you an in-depth look at this game, previewing all 12 of the classes and examining many of the most fundamental changes to the game. Of course, that is a long time to wait to get a complete picture, so I wanted to take this opportunity to give you insight into the game, how it works, and why we made the changes that we made. We will be covering these in much more detail later, but we thought it might be useful to give a general overview right now.



Illustration by Wayne Reynolds​
[h=2]New, but the Same[/h]Our first goal was to make Pathfinder Second Edition feel just like the game you know and love. That means that as a player, you need to be able to make the choices that allow you to build the character you want to play. Similarly, as a Game Master, you need to have the tools and the support to tell the story you want to tell. The rules that make up the game have to fundamentally still fill the same role they did before, even if some of the mechanics behind them are different.
[h=2]Building a Character[/h]It's worth taking a moment to talk about how characters are built, because we spent a lot of time making this process smoother and more intuitive. You start by selecting your ancestry (which used to be called race), figuring out where you came from and what sorts of basic statistics you have. Next you decide on your background, representing how you were raised and what you did before taking up the life of an adventurer. Finally, you select your class, the profession you have dedicated yourself to as an intrepid explorer. Each one of these choices is very important, modifying your starting ability scores, giving you starting proficiencies and class skills, and opening up entire feat chains tailored to your character.

After making the big choices that define your character, you have a variety of smaller choices to make, including assigning skill proficiencies, picking an ancestry feat, buying gear, and deciding on the options presented by your class. Finally, after deciding on all of your choices, the only thing left to do is figure out all of your bonuses, which are now determined by one unified system of proficiency, based on your character's level.

As you go on grand adventures with your character, you will gain experience and eventually level up. Pathfinder characters have exciting and important choices to make every time they gain a level, from selecting new class feats to adding new spells to their repertoires.
[h=2]Playing the Game[/h]We've made a number of changes to the way the game is played, to clean up the overall flow of play and to add some interesting choices in every part of the story. First up, we have broken play up into three distinct components. Encounter mode is what happens when you are in a fight, measuring time in seconds, each one of which can mean life or death. Exploration mode is measured in minutes and hours, representing travel and investigation, finding traps, decoding ancient runes, or even mingling at the queen's coronation ball. Of all the modes of play, exploration is the most flexible, allowing for easy storytelling and a quick moving narrative. Finally, the downtime mode happens when your characters are back in town, or relative safety, allowing them to retrain abilities, practice a trade, lead an organization, craft items, or recuperate from wounds. Downtime is measured in days, generally allowing time to flow by in an instant.

Most of the game happens in exploration or encounter mode, with the two types of play flowing easily from one to the other. In fact, exploration mode can have a big impact on how combat begins, determining what you roll for your initiative. In a group of four exploring a dungeon, two characters might have their weapons ready, keeping an eye out for danger. Another might be skulking ahead, keeping to the shadows, while the fourth is looking for magic. If combat begins, the first two begin with their weapons drawn, ready for a fight, and they roll Perception for their initiative. The skulking character rolls Stealth for initiative, giving them a chance to hide before the fight even begins. The final adventurer rolls Perception for initiative, but also gains some insight as to whether or not there is magic in the room.

After initiative is sorted out and it's your turn to act, you get to take three actions on your turn, in any combination. Gone are different types of actions, which can slow down play and add confusion at the table. Instead, most things, like moving, attacking, or drawing a weapon, take just one action, meaning that you can attack more than once in a single turn! Each attack after the first takes a penalty, but you still have a chance to score a hit. In Pathfinder Second Edition, most spells take two actions to cast, but there are some that take only one. Magic missile, for example, can be cast using from one to three actions, giving you an additional missile for each action you spend on casting it!
Between turns, each character also has one reaction they can take to interrupt other actions. The fighter, for example, has the ability to take an attack of opportunity if a foe tries to move past or its defenses are down. Many classes and monsters have different things they can do with their reactions, making each combat a little bit less predictable and a lot more exciting. Cast a fire spell near a red dragon, for example, and you might just find it takes control of your magic, roasting you and your friends instead of the intended target!
[h=2]Monsters and Treasure[/h]The changes to the game are happening on both sides of the GM screen. Monsters, traps, and magic items have all gotten significant revisions.

First off, monsters are a lot easier to design. We've moved away from strict monster construction formulas based off type and Hit Dice. Instead, we start by deciding on the creature's rough level and role in the game, then select statistics that make it a balanced and appropriate part of the game. Two 7th-level creatures might have different statistics, allowing them to play differently at the table, despite both being appropriate challenges for characters of that level.

This also makes it easier for us to present monsters, giving us more space to include special abilities and actions that really make a monster unique. Take the fearsome tyrannosaurus, for example; if this terrifying dinosaur gets you in its jaws, it can take an action to fling you up to 20 feet through the air, dealing tremendous damage to you in the process!

Hazards are now a more important part of the game, from rangers creating snares to traps that you have to actively fight against if you want to survive. Poisons, curses, and diseases are a far more serious problem to deal with, having varied effects that can cause serious penalties, or even death.

Of all of the systems that Game Masters interact with, magic items are one of the most important, so we spent extra time ensuring that they are interesting and fun. First and foremost, we have taken significant steps to allow characters to carry the items they want, instead of the items that they feel they must have to succeed. Good armor and a powerful weapon are still critical to the game, but you no longer have to carry a host of other smaller trinkets to boost up your saving throws or ability scores. Instead, you find and make the magic items that grant you cool new things to do during play, giving you the edge against all of the monsters intent on making you into their next meal.
We can't wait until you find your first +1 longsword to see what it can do!
[h=2]What's Next?[/h]There are a lot of things we are excited to show off, so many in fact that we have to pace ourselves. First off, if you want to hear the game in action right now, we've recorded a special podcast with the folks from the Glass Cannon Network, converting the original Pathfinder First Edition Module, Crypt of the Everflame, to the new edition. Head on over to their site and listen to the first part of this adventure now!
Stop by tomorrow for the first blog taking an in-depth look at Pathfinder Second Edition, starting off with the new system for taking actions, then visit us again on Friday for an exploration of the Glass Cannon game, exploring some of its spoilers in detail!
[h=2]We Need You![/h]All of us at Paizo want to take a moment to thank you, the fans, players, and game masters that have made this exciting journey a possibility. It's been a wild ride for the past decade, and speaking personally, I could not be more excited for where we are heading. But, as I am sure you've heard a number of times already, we cannot make this game without you, without your feedback and passion for the game. Thank you for coming with us on this adventure, thank you for contributing to our community, and thank you for playing Pathfinder.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design
[h=2]Pathfinder Playtest Features[/h]The new Pathfinder Playtest rules are the first step in the evolution to the new edition. We have incorporated the best innovations and lessons of the last 10 years to move the game forward in new and exciting ways. As we count down the days to the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook release, we'll be revealing more information on the following topics (and more!) on the Paizo blog:

  • 10th-Level Spells and 4 Spell Lists
  • Alchemists in Core
  • Archetypes and Multiclassing
  • Class Changes
  • Classic Monsters and Magic
  • Clean, Modular Information-Based Design
  • Combat Maneuvers that Rock
  • Designed for All Levels of Play
  • Easier to Play
  • Goblin Player Characters
  • Golarion-Infused
  • Heroic Storytelling
  • Innovative Initiative
  • More Customization
  • New Background System
  • Pathfinder Society
  • Production Values
  • Race Changes and Feats
  • Rebalanced Magic Items
  • Simplified Actions
  • Streamlined Proficiencies
  • Support
  • True to Pathfinder
  • Wayne Reynolds Art

[h=2]Compatibility?[/h]The big question -- backwards compatibility? Paizo says "While many of the rules of the game have changed, much of what made Pathfinder great has remained the same. The story of the game is unchanged, and in many cases, you can simply replace the old rules with their new counterpart without having to alter anything else about the adventure. As for individual rules, like your favorite spell or monster, most can be added with a simple conversion, changing a few numbers and rebalancing some of the mechanics."
[h=2]Pathfinder Playtest Products[/h]All Pathfinder Playtest products will be released as FREE downloads exclusively at paizo.com on August 2, 2018. On the same day, we'll release limited-edition print versions of the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook, Pathfinder Playtest Adventure, and Pathfinder Playtest Flip-Mat Multi-Pack for players and Game Masters seeking the ultimate playtest experience. These print editions will be available for preorder from local retailers now and paizo.com between March 20 and May 1. We'll also have copies at the Paizo booth during Gen Con 2018 in Indianapolis on August 2–5.
[h=4]Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook[/h]This massive 400-page rulebook contains everything you need to create characters and run Pathfinder Playtest adventures from levels 1–20! With gorgeous new illustrations by Wayne Reynolds, the Playtest Rulebook lights the path leading directly to Pathfinder's future. Available in three editions: softcover, hardcover, and deluxe hardcover with foil-debossed faux-leather cover and ribbon bookmark.
[h=4]Pathfinder Playtest Adventure: Doomsday Dawn[/h]This 96-page super-adventure contains seven multi-encounter scenarios designed to introduce the new rules and put them to the ultimate test on your game table! With adventures spanning all 20 levels and featuring most of the game's newest rules, Doomsday Dawn provides a thrilling tour of the new rules, and of the Pathfinder world itself!
[h=4]Pathfinder Playtest Flip-Mat Multi-Pack[/h]Throw your heroes into the action with this collection of two double-sided Flip-Mats for use with the Playtest Adventure. These beautiful full-color maps measure 24" x 30" unfolded and set the scene for climactic battles that will determine the future of Pathfinder! The maps' erasable surface can handle and dry-erase, wet-erase, or even permanent markers.
[FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT]
 

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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If you want to balance casting it's not a discussion that's simply about creating new rules for casting or spells. In reality its a rework of the combat system and character options from the perspective of what would actually happen to combat and character options in a world where magic happens.

1. Do not make it harder to cast than it is to swing a sword in combat.
2. Do ensure that if casters have to prep spells ahead of time in exchange for their flexibility that you enforce that prep in game.
3. Do not nerf caster ability, if they have to prep ahead of time then they need to be cool when they cast their stuff.
4. Do provide martial classes with some sort of resistance to magic or magic combat training to counteract spells*

* The above needs to be thought out more. I'm not saying magic resistance is a good idea I'm just saying that if mages can be super fiexible then the balancing point for martial classes is to be able to resist/avoid certain things. It's a good way to explain why mages became flexible too.
I disagree greatly with #1 here. Spellcasting should involve much more than swinging a sword does; and should be impossible while having a sword swung at you.

#2 and #3 run into a thing I've disliked about D&D from day 1: pre-memorization of spells. Far prefer if casters all worked on the 3e Sorcerer mechanic, where you get x-many slots per spell level and can cast any spell in your repertoire of that level if you've got a slot left to use. (and yes this makes casters much more flexible, which is in part why I want to harshly rein them in else-ways)

As for #4, the best magic resistance a martial can have is the ability to get to the caster and chop him down.

5. If martial classes need to roll to hit for most things, then caster classes should also need to roll to hit for most things.
Absolutely! Preach this to the skies, brother! :)
Both should have exceptions. If casters have magic missiles and AoE auto hit, then martial classes should have similar abilities at similar scale with flavor that reinforces the differences between martial and casting classes.
Meh - I don't mind martials having to roll to hit every time.

Last, I agree that there needs to be a flexible initiative system or some mechanic that forces re-evaluation of the order of combat periodically through a fight. Ebb and Flow is part of a fight that needs to be simulated so "leet builds" aren't always effective. It'd go a long way towards protecting the system from power creep once the splats start coming out.
Agreed.

Don't allow martial classes to create the "All casters must die fighting style" Each must have its pros and cons when dealing with casters.
What's wrong with "all casters must die"? I mean, they really must, come on now.

Lan-"and a +2 wizardslayer longsword is of great assistance in this regard, believe me"-efan
 

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I like (most) what I read about PF2. I think they are doing right by leaving 3.5 behind and make a new game, their own rpg.

What really worries and saddens me is that Paizo IMO is very, very bad at game design. Very. Which means there's a rather significant risk that all the things I'm really excited about right now will turn out.... disappointing.
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
What really worries and saddens me is that Paizo IMO is very, very bad at game design. Very. Which means there's a rather significant risk that all the things I'm really excited about right now will turn out.... disappointing.

How do you come to this conclusion?

Just asking out of curiosity, as I do play a lot of PF, know the system's problems and also think PF fixed a lot of bad 3.x stuff. Don't know too much about Paizo themselves though.
 

Erik Mona

Adventurer
It's hard to believe that a game that uses the same terminology and seemingly touts many of the same features of its biggest competitor is merely a "coincidence"

I think most people understand the situation. 5e basically stole your lunch and now you are trying to steal some of it back by acting like 5e, even if you won't publicly admit it.

And on top of it, re-sell new editions of every PF1 book. Since most will be recycled, ideas, if not rules/words, that saves on development cost.

But personally, I think you and your customers would have been better served by just officially supporting 5e and continuing to support PF1. Trying to chase after the new thing isn't going to work (since 5e fans will still prefer 5e) and will just alienate those 3.5 fans that your company was built on...

Oh, man, I forgot all about you, dude. LOL.

We're trying to make Pathfinder the best version of Pathfinder it can be. That's all.
 

How do you come to this conclusion?

Just asking out of curiosity, as I do play a lot of PF, know the system's problems and also think PF fixed a lot of bad 3.x stuff. Don't know too much about Paizo themselves though.

Besides such classics as Prone Shooter, Caustic Slur and Monkey Lunge, you have (some of) the subsystems in the APs (fx caravan rules), the Mythic rules (*shudder*), the Summoner, the Shifter and so on, added to the fact that they IMO did indeed not fix the major issues of 3.5, but only added a layer of houserules on top. YMMV here.

On top of that, add an extraordinary resistance to admit flaws in design, caster supremancy etc., and acknowledging input from "playtests", and my hopes are low. Unfortunately.

Edit: I hope to be proven wrong. So much. For PF2 sounds great and I am excited!
 
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CubicsRube

Adventurer
Supporter
Pathfinder lost me when my 5th level barbarian with bear claws couldn't attack a monster with both hands....because it was 10 feet away.

All the arbitrary rules that existed for now damn good reason just ended up giving me a headache and feeling like i was restricted in ways that didn't make sense. Plus with tons of fiddly modifiers i felt more like i was doing math than engaging in a fantastical world of heroes and monster slaying.

If the 2e release changes a lot of that, it'll certainly attract my interest.

Id also be curious as to how spells will be. Magic in d&d has never been wild or unpredictable, desspite what fluff has suggested. It's more exact than many sciences! But the action economy alone seems like it would adress martial/caster balance a lot.

How does the 3 actions work? Does anyone know? Can i assume a ldvel 1 character with a sword can take three swipes at an enemy per turn? I actually dont mind this, as theyre not going to be impressive swipes at that level
 

Will Paizo publish their own "Ultimate Psionic" and and other systems like "akasha magic"(incarnum) or the vestige pact magic?

The Advanced Player Guide was published in Spanish languange in the year ....2016!! When then the updated version of cavalier, summoner, witch, oracle and inquisitor?
 

MechaTarrasque

Adventurer
It occurs to me that all this worrying about how many actions to cast spells may be a little premature. Remember this is Pathfinder: there will probably be a "fast casting" feat. If there is any justice, it will be a feat chain: Fast casting 1 (you reduce the number of actions to cast a 1st level spell by one), Fast casting 2 (prereq Fast casting 1, you reduce the number of actions to cast a 2nd level spell by one),..... Fast casting 10 (prereq Fast casting 1,...Fast casting 9, you reduce the number of actions to cast a 10th level spell by one). Normally I hate feat chains, but given how heavily they affect martials (and how caster's players tend to justify this by "they have more feats"), I could get behind this one.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
That's hardly a fair thing to say, you really can't know if they dried up due to the playtest, They gave up on us. During the 2 year playtest, 2 books were published for 4e... Both of them during the 1st 6 months of the playtest.

Well, I don't have access to WotC's data, but I was good friends with a game store owner back in those days -- the two 4E books published after the D&D Next announcement sold three copies, total, in his store, and two of them were to me!

In retrospect this should have been obvious. Sales of product for an existing edition do decline when a new edition is announced. In 4E's case, there was the added wrinkle that the folks who were most invested in the game likely also had D&D Insider accounts and didn't need to actually buy the books in order to use the material in them, further cannibalizing sales. While I can't say it with 100% certainty, I feel fairly confident that the reason we only got two 4E books after the D&D Next announcement is that they sold so poorly that WotC (wisely) decided to turn to the back-catalog in the hopes of keeping enough revenue coming in to hold the doors open until 5E's release.

*That's* why I say the two-year playtest was a bad business decision -- if you can't make enough money to stay open to release your game after the playtest ends, then the playtest was too long. WotC is one of the few publishers who could pull this off (but just because they managed it doesn't mean it still wasn't a bad decision, it was just a bad decision that still worked out), and I don't think Paizo has the kind of back-catalog to make that decision work out.

--
Pauper
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
I potentially disagree about the 5E 2 year playtest being a bad business decision. If the length of the playtest led to WotC coming up with the slow-burn business model that they have for 5E, then I think it was worth it from a business perspective.

I think those are two different points -- you don't need a two-year playtest to realize that putting out a new hardcover book every 2-3 months is a problematic business model.

I do think your comment on the 'lifecycle' of each edition is more relevant to that point, though -- if there's only so much material you can publish before it's time to run out a new edition, then publishing that material more frequently means you reach that lifecycle end point faster, and slowing down the release schedule means you extend that lifecycle end point. There are arguably other advantages, too -- putting out a new book every few months encourages players to simply mine those books for the most effective handful of mechanics and only use those, because a new book is coming out with more new toys to play with soon, so why spend a lot of time exploring the depth of the material you already have? But those advantages are more 'quality of life' issues and less about the core business model behind producing the game.

The challenge in slowing down the release schedule comes down to identifying the point where the release schedule becomes so slow that you can no longer meet your overhead costs along with your release-specific expenses and not letting the schedule slow down that far. And again, I don't think playtesting gets you to that point; you get there by crunching numbers and trying different publishing schedules.

--
Pauper
 

Jharet

Explorer
I just have to accept that Pathfinder is a closed system now. I have three running campaigns at present. Two of them involve Mythic play under the Mythic Adventures rules.

Mythic is one element for which Paizo has all but actively dropped support. I have a pretty clear notion that it won't be carried over to the new edition. Therefor, my two charted Mythic campaigns will last longer than the current iteration of the rule set.

I know epic games like those mentioned above aren't for everyone, but when I played Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, I had to survive places like the Temple of Elemental Evil and the Tomb of Horrors and for me those adventures will always feel mythic. I am trying to do the same for my game.

Edit: *Temple of Elemental Evil
 

ehren37

Explorer
Multiple rounds. Holy crap we have different ideas of what is fun. Multiple rounds to cast a single spell? I assume you mean combat spells, as well? I’ll keep Dad away from that game. 5e’s spells that take 1 minute or longer to cast are one thing, but making a high level attack spell take multiple rounds is a non-starter for me.



This is a separate issue. They can fix his without making the action economy for spellcasters terrible.

Hell, they can fix faster balance without screwing with action economy at all.

This is the equivalent of if 5e requiring an action and a bonus action to cast Fireball.

How many rounds does it take the fighter to summon a solar? Or that rogue to mass dominate? Spell effects are way more impacting than "I hit it with my sword for some damage. Maybe"

Like I said, you shouldn't even be able to move and cast in the same round. Casters should frankly be kind of terrible in a fight, given how low impact fighters/rogues get to be in other situations thanks to the "muh v-tude" crowd. They get to remake their characters daily with spell prep and break the laws of physics while everyone else has to maintain reality. THAT's their strength. They shouldn't get unfettered effects, versatility AND effectiveness with no risk of arcane corruption/backlash/insanity.

That spells go up in damage AND scope is a huge portion of the quadratic wizard linear fighter problem. PF has always been a huge caster love affair, so I doubt they'll gut them enough to have any manner of balance.
 

Kaodi

Adventurer
I would not be surprised if Paizo continues to sell PF1 APs to PF2 players. I mean APs are what the company stands for. And I think any conversion issues will probably be quite manageable with a simpler creation systems that they are proposing. I certainly plan on completing my purchase of the Kingmaker AP when I eventually have disposable income again.
 

ehren37

Explorer
Right, it’s just bad design. The players should be engaged every round, ideally. Mechanics that actively work against that aren’t good.

I agree they should probably also have to make an Arcana roll to build up energy to continue the spell. :p

For the record, I'm suggesting 1-2 full round actions for most spells of level 3+, not 5 rounds. Sure, let them lob a cantrip as they build up their spell. Heals and support would probably just be 1 standard action. Maybe with the option to try and speed up casting at personal risk.

Magic is far too easy in D&D, and PF in particular, where a decent level caster will be throwing a spell in every round that matters in an adventuring day. It's what lead to rocket tag in 3.5 with its proliferation of save or suck spells. The effects are too big for 1 action IMO. 4E tried to nerf the effects and players spoiled by 3E howled . The other option is to throttle how fast big effects can be dumped on the battlefield.

Full casters dominate non-combat as is. They can afford to be second fiddle in combat.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I would not be surprised if Paizo continues to sell PF1 APs to PF2 players. I mean APs are what the company stands for. And I think any conversion issues will probably be quite manageable with a simpler creation systems that they are proposing. I certainly plan on completing my purchase of the Kingmaker AP when I eventually have disposable income again.

PDFs will stay available (but they won't be reprinting 1E stuff).

http://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest/faq#v5748eaic9wfk
 

Toriel

Explorer
I didn't read all 14 pages of comments but personally, I really like the concept of ancestry instead of races. By presenting them this way, you can have a world with only humans who have different capabilities depending on their ancestry.

I must say that I found the original Pathfinder too heavy and complicated for my more recent tastes, so this is good news. I will definitely take a look at it.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
How many rounds does it take the fighter to summon a solar? Or that rogue to mass dominate? Spell effects are way more impacting than "I hit it with my sword for some damage. Maybe"

Like I said, you shouldn't even be able to move and cast in the same round. Casters should frankly be kind of terrible in a fight, given how low impact fighters/rogues get to be in other situations thanks to the "muh v-tude" crowd. They get to remake their characters daily with spell prep and break the laws of physics while everyone else has to maintain reality. THAT's their strength. They shouldn't get unfettered effects, versatility AND effectiveness with no risk of arcane corruption/backlash/insanity.

That spells go up in damage AND scope is a huge portion of the quadratic wizard linear fighter problem. PF has always been a huge caster love affair, so I doubt they'll gut them enough to have any manner of balance.

I mean, 5e proves that you can bring casters and non casters closer in power without upsetting older fans, so I buy these arguments very little.

The 3.5 example is funny, because you even point out what actually created the problem. That is, proliferation of save or suck spells.

In 5e, fighters and rogues are killing tough enemies while the wizard summons something that might kill some enemies next round, or dropping control on sections of the field, or boosting allies, or setting up the fighter and rogue to even more effectively gank enemies. At high levels, both classes can one-shot even pretty tough non-legendary creatures, and legendary resistance helps make them equal in importance with casters for taking down legendary enemies.

Making casters noticeably less fun to play, on a purely play-style level, is not a valid method of balance.
 


ehren37

Explorer
I mean, 5e proves that you can bring casters and non casters closer in power without upsetting older fans, so I buy these arguments very little.

They're not near each other in power or specifically utility. They have some minor parity in combat, but casters pull way ahead in exploration and social thanks to various effects. Essentially all non-casters have is skill checks, which casters ALSO get. As such, casters should be significantly worse in combat. An evoker types can give up other utility to achieve closer to non-caster baseline. It's BETTER than it was, still not where it needs to be.

The 3.5 example is funny, because you even point out what actually created the problem. That is, proliferation of save or suck spells.

And extra utility. AND getting to pick new spell loadouts daily.

In 5e, fighters and rogues are killing tough enemies while the wizard summons something that might kill some enemies next round, or dropping control on sections of the field, or boosting allies, or setting up the fighter and rogue to even more effectively gank enemies. At high levels, both classes can one-shot even pretty tough non-legendary creatures, and legendary resistance helps make them equal in importance with casters for taking down legendary enemies.

They shouldnt be par though. Not without losing utility in other areas.

Making casters noticeably less fun to play, on a purely play-style level, is not a valid method of balance.

I don't see how them casting cantrips for a few rounds to build magical energy up for a big spell is unfair. It's basically all fighters do and they don't even have big effect outside of action surge! Fighter types need more nova, and casters need less. This will also help balance how D&D generally plays out, with less than 6-8 combat encounters. It removes the need for time wasting filler and stops a caster from dropping a bunch of effects in rapid succession to dominate play.
 
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