Pathfinder 1E Paizo no longer publishing Dungeon and Dragon

[Steel_Wind]

Issue #352 for example was only really interesting for those who knows/enjoys China Mieville's writings...

I didn't know or enjoy them prior to the issue. It was still interesting.

I bought Perdido Street Station as a result of the issue.

Not everybody reacted the same way to an issue that you appear not have liked much.

I expect their overall monthly sales didn't go up and down all that much over a course of a year.

 

[Mistwell]

From that same user at CM:

One more bit of data, from Dragon #278 (December 2000):
63,079 (15,920 from subs) for the most recent issue.
57,858 (14,445 from subs) average for the last 12 months.
But they were holding 19,000 copies from distribution, compared to 900 for 351.

They had 43661 sold for 278, which is close to the average for last year.

 

[Thurbane]

This product doesn't roll out for MONTHS.

Maybe they wanted to give the end of the magazines some respect and some time in the sun?

Maybe there's more to the way they reacted than incompetence and malicious hate of the honest, god-fearin gamers?

Maybe, but I guess, until we get some concrete info, it's entirely in the eye of the beholder (consumer). And this beholder feels more than a little disgruntled and disappointed at the handling of this whole affair by WotC.

Paizo, in comparison, have been positively helpful and informative.

 

[TheLostSoul]

I didn't know or enjoy them prior to the issue. It was still interesting.

I bought Perdido Street Station as a result of the issue.

Not everybody reacted the same way to an issue that you appear not have liked much.

I expect their overall monthly sales didn't go up and down all that much over a course of a year.

I actually enjoyed it alot I had read all his novels beforehand and are going through his Looking for Jake short story compilation. I know from various boards that there were some people who did not like the fact that approximately half the issue was devoted to China Mieville. I am greatly anticipating his upcomming novel

 

[TheLostSoul]

From that same user at CM:

:
One more bit of data, from Dragon #278 (December 2000):
63,079 (15,920 from subs) for the most recent issue.
57,858 (14,445 from subs) average for the last 12 months.
But they were holding 19,000 copies from distribution, compared to 900 for 351.

They had 43661 sold for 278, which is close to the average for last year.

__________________

Sad, but it doesn't surprise me. Personally, issue 352 was the first issue of Dragon I had bought in quite a while. Mainly because I am not playing D&D anymore.

The cause of this decrease in circulation might be a move for some gamers from D&D to other games and the possible (but not conclusively proven) downturn of P&P RPG sales. Personally, I do not think that electronical publishing is the answer, numerically, but it is a good idea economically (which tends to leave the consumer is a worse position, IME).

 

[daemonslye]

If the magazines were doing poorly, WotC wouldn't care if Paizo put out others. No, it's just the opposite. They're doing well, and likely WotC products--probably specifically adventures--aren't doing as well as WotC wants. There's been some loud voices at WotC crying that Dragon and Dungeon (particularly Dungeon) are too good a value. They're too good for the customer, and smart customers buy them rather than regular products. This was true when WotC put out the magazines, and it's been true under the Paizo banner as well. I'm guessing declining sales gave these voices the evidence they needed to axe the magazines. - Monte Cook

Well, that certainly rings true. I also read the personal letters from some of the long-time staff of Wizards.

To those folks: I ask you to think a bit before you post stuff like that. Do the research and understand who and what you work for. If you find that you don't agree with the philosophy, leave and go somewhere you can believe in.

But please don't write letters because you were told to - without knowing the facts. If you were part of the decision, then you are disgusting and a traitor to our collective conscience. If you were not, then I implore you to leave and work for a company you can feel better about.

Think about this really hard my friends - writers & editors (former and current) at WOTC. Do not lend your voice to this matter if you have any doubts regarding why this decision was made.

If it has anything to do with Monte's assertion, you guys need to leave. This whole game/movement is larger than a single Company and it has a particular "ethos". The people who made the call in this case broke it.

At this point, I can only think the best outcome is that we work very very hard to ban WOTC D&D items - Especially 4th Ed. Let me say it again - BAN 4th Ed. ...Ban purchasing WOTC miniatures.

When Hasbro determines it's asset has degraded in value, it will look to optimize while there is still equity in the Brand. This will open up opportunities to get the brand along with certain domains of IP (ex. Greyhawk) into the hands of more capable stewards.

A BAN does not mean D&D is dead. It is simply another road to the same end. WOTC/Hasbro is now fired from D&D. They had their chance and they irrevocably dropped it.

~D

 

[Mistwell]

If you were part of the decision, then you are disgusting and a traitor to our collective conscience. If you were not, then I implore you to leave and work for a company you can feel better about.

Okay, it's time this was said.

People who feel like you need to get a life.

Seriously. You are the reason our hobby is portrayed as composed of obsessive, socially deprived, extreme nerds who live in their parents basements and eventually find their ways into steam tunnels in a psychotic break.

It's just a couple of magazines that are going online. That's all this is about. Nobody is a "disgusting traitor to our collective conscience". Nobody should quit their jobs, leaving their families without an income, because your precious magazines are going online instead of in print.

Christ. Get a friggen life! Get outdoors! Take a break from the obsession. It's just a game. Just a hobby. There were just some mags with fantasy stuff in them that isn't real.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Maybe, but I guess, until we get some concrete info, it's entirely in the eye of the beholder (consumer). And this beholder feels more than a little disgruntled and disappointed at the handling of this whole affair by WotC.

Paizo, in comparison, have been positively helpful and informative.

In fairness to WotC, they are in an entirely different boat. (I know - I'm not in a "lets be fair to WotC" mood either.)

Paizo does not have to TRULY worry about whether they can create and deliver Pathfinder. They have been in the publishing business for five years now on their own (not to mention years at WotC before) and they know they can deliver this product in August.

WotC, in comparison, is not just moving content to online. They are integrating it into an online subscription package of a number of services, some of which will be innovative and - therefore - risky to implement.

Some of those services will compete with software packages offered by others. Some of what WotC will do will be superior to that software.

And I absolutely 100% guarantee that some of what WotC will offer will be inferior to competing products.

WotC has a lot of experience in the web publishing business. If writing was all that they had to do - they could commit to that without qualm. But this is part of a bigger overall computer development package which they don't have vast experience in - but ARE experienced enough to know that these things are not always ready when you plan for them to be - don't always work as you had hoped nor offer the features you initially planned for them to have.

When it's software development - best to shut your mouth until you are very sure on what you can deliver, be sure that it works, and that any lead time over other possible competitors is maximized.

We'll get info at Gencon, doubtless - but given that WotC was advertising for developers on Gamasutra last month, i don't think they are in a position to roll out all the chrome for a good while yet.

 

[The_Gneech]

Okay, it's time this was said.

People who feel like you need to get a life.

Seriously. You are the reason our hobby is portrayed as composed of obsessive, socially deprived, extreme nerds who live in their parents basements and eventually find their ways into steam tunnels in a psychotic break.

It's just a couple of magazines that are going online. That's all this is about. Nobody is a "disgusting traitor to our collective conscience". Nobody should quit their jobs, leaving their families without an income, because your precious magazines are going online instead of in print.

Christ. Get a friggen life! Get outdoors! Take a break from the obsession. It's just a game. Just a hobby. There were just some mags with fantasy stuff in them that isn't real.

This from the "Are you saying they're LYING???" person? Funny. :\

-The Gneech

 

[rowport]

...ban WOTC D&D items - Especially 4th Ed. Let me say it again - BAN 4th Ed. ...Ban purchasing WOTC miniatures. ...

I dunno, dude, but a product ban just seems... extreme... to me. I mean, if you feel that strongly about it, more power to you, I guess.

For me, this is not about some moral crusade, or that Wizards is an evil corporation or whatever. I believe that cancelling Dungeon and Dragon is a poor business decision, but that is about it. Honestly, if WOTC had instead decided to (re-)publish the mags again with the expiration of the Paizo license, I would probably not have reacted much at all. Heck, the cross-over of staff and freelancers between both companies would make it pretty silly to paint one as "good" and the other "evil" IMO.

I regret losing the print mags, whoever makes them. And, I really doubt that I will buy an on-line subscription, as I do not like the 'product' as I understand it. But, I will not ban for its own reason. Heck, I am skeptical about 4E, but maybe it will be fantastic! Time will tell. If it is great stuff, I will probably buy it.