Paizo To Make Kingmaker Bestiary... For D&D 5E!

Kingmaker's 10th anniversary is approaching. Paizo has announced on their blog that, along with a Pathfinder 2E hardcover Kingmaker compilation, they will be creating a hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for D&D 5E.


20190502-Kingmaker_500.jpg


The blog announcement says "[FONT=&amp]Finally, we'll add a hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for 5E, developed in conjunction with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing, allowing players of the current edition of the world's oldest RPG the chance to experience the rich and detailed storylines that have made the Kingmaker Adventure Path a fan favorite for a decade."[/FONT]

It is being produced "with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing" and refers to "add-ons and unlocks" which "will be revealed as the campaign progresses". They're partnering with crowdfunding site Game On Tabletop.

They'll be revealing the details on Tuesday May 7th at noon Pacific time over at KingmakerCampaign.com.

Also in line is a Companion Guide for the PF2 Kingmaker campaign.
 
Russ Morrissey

Comments

Jharet

Explorer
After waiting for years for a Kingmaker collected edition for Pathfinder, it is a bit of a slap in the face to fans to see it offered to 5E players. Once, Mona and company announce the new Starstone Module for 5E, the message will be clearer. So, meh. Good for 5e players in that they can get a good adventure.
 

LuisCarlos17f

Adventurer
The RPGs have got two parts: crunch and fluff.

Fluff has got a constante value because the lore and background can be later, for example in a adaptation for comic, novel or videogame. But many times sourcebooks of fluff are only to be read a couple of times, and now internet and wikis of videogames, series and comics offer a lot of free fluff.

If there is too many crunch, the value is lower, and it can be created by 3rd party publishers. And players don't want to buy again the same books only to have an updated version of the crunch. And any fluff isn't ready for new crunch as new classes with a special game mechanic (for example the vestige pact magic).

Pathfinder has future, or at least Golarion as franchise or IP, a too enough value to not be forgotten.

* I would love sourcebooks with 5th Ed D&D version of monsters, races and classes by Pathfinder, but I don't need stats for nPCs.

* D20 system has still a failure to be the ultimate universal RPG system. I give this the name "Cobretti effect". In the movie "Cobra" Brigitte Nielsen's character was unarmed and she couldn't face night slasher, only to hide and run away like in a survival horror, but Sylvester Stallone with enough weapons could kill all the cult of the new dawn. In the modern settings with firearms the monsters or enemies are too powerful or too weak if PCs have got (enough) weapons and ammo and this needs a right adjustment of XPs reward and challenge rating value. My suggestion is to publish a d20 Modern 2.0. with more abilities scores: Courage, Grace (karma/fate/luck), Astuteness and Des would be Agility (Reflex) and Technique (crafting, arts, dance, pre-learnt actions, maneuvers of martial arts..).
 

Jharet

Explorer
Let's get one thing straight. 5e is only popular because of Stranger Things and the Critical Role folks. The game is not pulling in new players without that exposure. If Stranger Things pretended there was a Pathfinder in 1983, we wouldn't be talking about Pathfinder second edition at all and D and D would be on sixth edition by now. As an old school gamer, 5e is boring, the PF2 playtest felt like a watered down version of the game I already love. So, Pathfinder players are left in the cold and will be bitter for a while. Ten years worth of books and steady rotation of games will have to keep me busy.
 

Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
After waiting for years for a Kingmaker collected edition for Pathfinder, it is a bit of a slap in the face to fans to see it offered to 5E players.
Because other gamers getting something nice is always a slap in the face. It's a bloody bestiary—the actual AP is still PF!
 

Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
Let's get one thing straight. 5e is only popular because of Stranger Things and the Critical Role folks. The game is not pulling in new players without that exposure. If Stranger Things pretended there was a Pathfinder in 1983, we wouldn't be talking about Pathfinder second edition at all and D and D would be on sixth edition by now. As an old school gamer, 5e is boring, the PF2 playtest felt like a watered down version of the game I already love. So, Pathfinder players are left in the cold and will be bitter for a while. Ten years worth of books and steady rotation of games will have to keep me busy.
Sir, that is absolutely laughable. Enjoy your sour grapes.
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION], you seem to be sending mixed messages. On the one hand, you seem to think that Paizo missed their opportunity to make products adapted directly for 5E as is. On the other, you bemoan that Paizo is not making "5E Advanced." But I suspect that if Paizo made either then their profits would fizzle out even faster. Why would the market bother with Paizo if they did either especially when many tables do not allow 3pp materials? By producing materials for 5e, Paizo would be making themselves niche among niche rather than carving out a more unique niche for themselves.
Thank you for allowing me to clarify. There are certainly calls for straight-up 5E material from Paizo, given their track record of adventure paths.

What I am envisioning as a Pathfinder successor game, however, is not a straight add-on to 5E. The game does not need to be directly or even closely compatible with 5E (and indeed should not be, given the litigation risks).

But is should be a game that takes 5E's lessons to heart. It should avoid giving off the impression of being a throw-back to the days of pre-5E gaming where casters were several tiers better than martials and creating high-level NPCs was an arduous task.

Once the game gets the basic sensibilities of the post-5E customer down, it can explore breaking out of all kinds of restrictions WotC has self-imposed on their game!

The idea is to thread the needle by exploiting the crunch gap left open by WotC.

If their game is too unlike 5E, PF2 suffers the overwhelming risk of becoming just another DnD clone in a long line of DnD clones. All these companies are much much smaller than Paizo wants to be, and needs to be to keep supporting Golarion with juicy adventures.

Essentially the idea is for Pathfinder 2 to hew close to 5E just as Pathfinder 1 hew close to 3E, since that's the only place with a prospect for staying relatively big.

The challenge is greater of course. After all WotC hasn't abandoned 5E the way they abandoned 3E. They have just abandoned "high-crunch 5E".

So that's where Paizo ought to position themselves.

Striking out on their own may make corporate sense ("never again depend on the whims of the 500 lb gorilla").

But this forgets that the pickings outside that gorilla's back yard are slim indeed.

Tldr What's the point of becoming a successful DnD clone publisher if that relegates Paizo to the size and heft of a successful DnD clone publisher? I mean, sure I can name half a dozen such games. But can name any company making them? No. Am I aware of any broadly accepted adventure campaign for such a game. No. Do any of them have the clout to publish path after path of renowned adventure. Please.
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
I think the main challenge will be that different people would like to have a version that's advanced in different ways - some might want more feats, others a more fine-grained skill system, still others may desire better backgrounds, and some may also wish for a more detailed modelling of fictional positioning than just advantage/disadvantage. I'm not sure that you can do one product that pleased all of these groups (if you do a very modular thing, play-testing might be very hard; and if you don't, you may put off some groups with too much crunch).
Yes, but being able to use the Pathfinder banner to unite them under one specific path would sure help!
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
And that’s why I’m surprised by some of the commenters here claiming that Paizo knows nothing about 5e. If I were a designer in this field I would absolutely want to study what is making 5e tick, and think about ways to make it tick better (or ways my product could be enhanced in a similar manner).
Yes the window where you could ignore 5E has long since closed.

In fact that summarizes my entire point.
 

Aldarc

Adventurer
But is should be a game that takes 5E's lessons to heart. It should avoid giving off the impression of being a throw-back to the days of pre-5E gaming where casters were several tiers better than martials and creating high-level NPCs was an arduous task.
This was really only a 3E problem as it was not shared by 4E or pre-3E. Furthermore, a lot of these lessons have already been taken to heart by the OSR market, which has arguably done a better job than 5E at providing easy pick-up-and-play games, though this also owes to influences from PbtA (e.g., playbooks). Also, like others have already said, I don't think that the bulk of 5E players are aware of or care about LFQW.

Once the game gets the basic sensibilities of the post-5E customer down, it can explore breaking out of all kinds of restrictions WotC has self-imposed on their game!

The idea is to thread the needle by exploiting the crunch gap left open by WotC.

If their game is too unlike 5E, PF2 suffers the overwhelming risk of becoming just another DnD clone in a long line of DnD clones. All these companies are much much smaller than Paizo wants to be, and needs to be to keep supporting Golarion with juicy adventures.
Conversely, if PF2 is too similar to 5E, then why should gamers bother with it either? Because it would remain substantially easier for gamers to stay with playing proper 5E alongside their friends than abandoning ship to play a "5E Heartbreaker." Even as large as 5E is, I don't think that the 5E crunch gap is particularly wide enough for Paizo to establish itself as a company. I think that you overestimate the demand for what you want from "High Crunch 5E."

This was the problem that many MMO developers faced when creating MMOs to compete against World of Warcraft. Many MMOs were creating WoW-esque MMOs only to discover that most people were sticking with WoW. Why? Because that was what everyone else was playing and these other games were not different enough to warrant playing these other games for prolonged periods. Including WoW most people nowadays speak of the "Big 4" MMOs (i.e., World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy 14, Guild Wars 2, and Elder Scrolls Online). Excluding WoW, each have enough significant differences from WoW that have warranted their respective fanbases.

Essentially the idea is for Pathfinder 2 to hew close to 5E just as Pathfinder 1 hew close to 3E, since that's the only place with a prospect for staying relatively big.

The challenge is greater of course. After all WotC hasn't abandoned 5E the way they abandoned 3E. They have just abandoned "high-crunch 5E".

So that's where Paizo ought to position themselves.
I am uncertain whether Paizo can position themselves there. My understanding is that the 5E OGL is not as open source as the d20 OGL.
 

Jharet

Explorer
Because other gamers getting something nice is always a slap in the face. It's a bloody bestiary—the actual AP is still PF!
Yes. The AP has been out of print. Pathfinder players actually want to play it. Not everyone likes to use PDfs and would like a collected edition of something out of print. Shouldn't be that hard for you to understand.
 

Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
Yes. The AP has been out of print. Pathfinder players actually want to play it. Not everyone likes to use PDfs and would like a collected edition of something out of print. Shouldn't be that hard for you to understand.
PF players WILL be able to play it. If you're so fussed about it being PF2 instead of PF1, I hate to break it to you but it makes no sense to support the defunct edition when you're rolling out a new edition. Sorry, just reality. Taking it personally isn't going to hellp you. Taking umbrage that the 5e community is getting a bestiary that they'll have to buy on top of the collectors edition isnn't going to win you any sympathy. And considering a support product for a different system as a slap in the face is just childish.

But, hey, you do have those pdfs for PF1—even if you don't like to use, they're still there. You just choose not to use them. But, hey, you can just use them for the moster and NPC stats while running the hardback adventure—you'll be on the same footing as 5e players with the bestiary.
 

Jharet

Explorer
Thanks for trying to provoke me. I don't have a problem with 5e or the community. It just doesn't interest me, nor the revisionist history surrounding its recent rise in popularity. Glad I could enlighten your days.
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
This was really only a 3E problem as it was not shared by 4E or pre-3E.
Not commenting on the pre or post 3E problem; just making sure we're both including Pathfinder (1) in the group of games with the "3E problem", yeah?
 

S'mon

Legend
Thinking about this - I have Kingmaker 1-3 & 5 (since I heard #4 is not great and #5 seems a better capstone than #6) but would never run them in 5e. And realistically I WILL buy this 5e Kingmaker hardback, assuming it has that great Paizo art, to help me do what I was always going to do one day - run KM in 5e.

I don't really understand how they can fill even one hardback with AP stat blocks, but I'm really curious to find out!
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
Furthermore, a lot of these lessons have already been taken to heart by the OSR market
Sorry I don't understand why bringing up this (or that 4E has solved a particular problem) is relevant.

The game that matters is 5E. And, just possibly if Paizo plays their cards right, Pathfinder 2.

Also, like others have already said, I don't think that the bulk of 5E players are aware of or care about LFQW.
This is not the argument you think it is.

(Of course they don't, they're playing a game where it is fixed!

If they were to switch to 3.5 say they would very much become very aware and start to care very quickly!)
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
Conversely, if PF2 is too similar to 5E, then why should gamers bother with it either? Because it would remain substantially easier for gamers to stay with playing proper 5E alongside their friends than abandoning ship to play a "5E Heartbreaker." Even as large as 5E is, I don't think that the 5E crunch gap is particularly wide enough for Paizo to establish itself as a company. I think that you overestimate the demand for what you want from "High Crunch 5E."
What do you consider is Pathfinder 2s niche then? They aren't making the game because people need to play a game named Pathfinder after all...

What I'm wondering is if you see a larger niche elsewhere? (If you don't, meaning Paizo is doomed regardless that's fair enough)

I'm not saying PF2 should or need to be too similar to 5E. I'm saying 5E brings certain concepts to the table that PF2 would do well to not go back on.
 

SkidAce

Adventurer
Let's get one thing straight. 5e is only popular because of Stranger Things and the Critical Role folks. The game is not pulling in new players without that exposure. If Stranger Things pretended there was a Pathfinder in 1983, we wouldn't be talking about Pathfinder second edition at all and D and D would be on sixth edition by now. As an old school gamer, 5e is boring, the PF2 playtest felt like a watered down version of the game I already love. So, Pathfinder players are left in the cold and will be bitter for a while. Ten years worth of books and steady rotation of games will have to keep me busy.
Simply put, I do not agree.

5E is popular with my group because it has the appeal of older styles, but has modernized the rule set with simple and elegant rules.
 

kenmarable

Explorer
After waiting for years for a Kingmaker collected edition for Pathfinder, it is a bit of a slap in the face to fans to see it offered to 5E players. Once, Mona and company announce the new Starstone Module for 5E, the message will be clearer. So, meh. Good for 5e players in that they can get a good adventure.
Psst... they are making a Kingmaker collected edition for Pathfinder.

They are not making a Kingmaker collected edition for 5e. Just a bestiary.

You face might feel a little less slapped if you actually read their announcement.
 

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