Paladin Actions - Appropriate?

[Arkhandus]

It might be getting a little off topic, but yes. This would not be true for mere descendents of outsiders (tieflings, aasimar, etc), but all of the "alignment embodying" outsiders - archons, eladrin, guardinals, modrons, etc., don't drift; they're not capable of it. (I suppose, thinking about it, that artifact/deity level effects could *force* a change to one, but that would not be any sort of free will... and who ever heard of a ring-of-turning-you-good anyway. That's not a good McGuffin. )

The main exception I make is for outsiders of non-fixed alignments - a solar can fall, for example; a solar is not a manifestation of the essence of a particular aligned plane; they can be lawful, neutral or chaotic - and thus can be tempted into a fall (very unlikely of course.

Right. The only times an Outsider can be 'redeemed'/turned/fallen/whatever is if they are one of the few that is flawed at the time of its creation on the Outer Planes, or if a powerful deity or similar entity (Archfiends, Archomentals, or the like, probably) forcibly changes them.

And solars or the like are specifically created by deities in the first place, so they could be different and a bit vulnerable to other powers of alignment.

 

[Arkhandus]

"It was self-defence, Your Honour! I hit him back first!"

-Hyp.

That was only one very minor point in the argument. Fiends only ever act out of self-interest. They are utterly selfish creatures. All compassion for others is torturously wrung out of them on the Lower Planes before they even fully form as fiends. They are EVIL. Goodly notions like compassion or a desire to help other creatures have no place in their pure-evil hearts. Anything that shows otherwise is only an act by the fiend to garner trust by stupid, naive mortals so it can use them to further its own diabolical goals. Always.

And the imp would garner more rewards, or a better chance of being promoted in the devilish hierarchy, if it could turn some mortals. Especially if it could turn a Paladin off of his path, and maybe towards being a Blackguard. That would really earn it some brownie points with its fiendish masters. Never think that a devil has greater considerations in mind than its own promotion and empowerment.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Actually, it is.

Actually, it isn't. To pull in other non-core sources, since the core sources are quiet and we need sources like MotP and BoED, I look to the Sanctified Template in the BoED. Power-arguments aside, of course, this template specifically calls out outsiders. Sanctified outsiders gain the good subtype and lose the following subtypes: baatezu (devil), tanar'ri (demon), and yugoloth. Even more specifically, if a creature has a fiendish template it loses that.

My point is not that I am twisting your words to make my points, but thanks for the charge against me! My point is that D&D Core is quiet on the issue. Non-Core speaks to the possibility of sanctification and redemption in the BoED. I admit that it is a hard process, but clearly possible. You may say it is impossible in your game, and that's cool. But D&D as published by WoTC has officially left the door open.

As for the MoTP, I'm not arguing that the demons and devils are notoriously evil. I'm just saying that it isn't as black and white as you paint it. I honestly don't know if the MoTP specifically says that Demons, Devils, Yugoloths, Inevitables, Angels, Solars, Guardinals, Eladrins, or Archons are uncorruptable from their predetermined alignment. But I do note that the BoED says that sanctification is possible for outsiders.

That isn't black and white to me. That is shades of gray (no matter how dim the possibility). Sanctification is always a possibility, even with fiends. Not an easy one, granted. but still a possibility.

EDIT: Also, I should note that the process of sanctification is covered by the spell Sanctify the Wicked in the BoED p. 106. Again, this spell calls out specifically how the soul is removed from an evil creature and allowed to perform penance in a diamond. This spell is 9th level and requires the sacrifice of a character level. Not easy, but possible.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That was only one very minor point in the argument. Fiends only ever act out of self-interest.

And that's my point. It was in the imp's self-interest to abide by the terms of the agreement, since he was weaker than the party. There was nothing to be gained by double-crossing them.

The only double-cross came from the paladin, who attacked the imp with whom the party had agreed to cooperate, when it no longer served his self-interest.

-Hyp.

 

[Arkhandus]

Gee I don't know...
*Look for the item the party is trying to find (as well as his own item) while the party is keeping the enemies at bay.
*Make sounds while invisible to possibly draw enemies away from the party
*Move objects infront of the enemies to prevent them from advancing, or to give the allies cover.
*Use a healing potion on a downed party memeber to revive them.

Very unlikely. Seeking out the item wouldn't be assisting in battle. It would not help the party win, help them escape, nor help them survive. It would only save them time after the battle, while leaving them to deal with the danger by themselves. Making noise is unlikely to work, especially not for more than 1 round. Very much not helpful if the opponents have been inside that building for a while and know that there's no one behind them in the house that would be interfering. Likely to be brushed off as a mage trying to fool them with pathetic illusions or something.

Moving objects is going to be of limited usefulness, and Imps aren't terribly large or strong. And unlikely to be of much use, at most delaying an opponent for a round. And it depends on what's in the room to begin with. Very unlikely. I would very much doubt an imp to waste a healing potion on a mortal, let alone be carrying one himself to begin with, given his own fiendish defenses and Fast Healing. The imp could always turn invisible or take on an alternate form if it needed to get away and find a short reprieve to Fast Heal.

Your alternatives are weak, poor choices for assisting in the battle, and seem more like grasping at straws. None would have bought the party more than 1 round of time to finish dealing with a single foe before another gets into melee, rather than just shooting or zapping them if possible.

None of those "assists" would turn the Imp visible as far as I know...

Again, "assist" during combat does not have to mean attack. All the examples you listed are things the Imp could do which would be considered an attack, which of course would turn him visible. Since the OP never specified what he meant by the Imp "assisting" in the OP, we can't just assume he meant he helped to attack.

And none of them would be very assist-ingly useful. It would certainly be a weak, pathetic effort on the Imp's part to fulfill his end of the bargain, not likely to convince the PC adventurers that it really did intend to fulfill the bargain, rather than just use them to do all the fighting for it and help it out, rather than a mutual partnership.


And you're still ignoring that it was apparently invisible until after the battle, or until the battle had started. Before then it was invisibly searching other parts of the house for its desired item, as the OP described it.

 

[Arkhandus]

And that's my point. It was in the imp's self-interest to abide by the terms of the agreement, since he was weaker than the party. There was nothing to be gained by double-crossing them.

The only double-cross came from the paladin, who attacked the imp with whom the party had agreed to cooperate, when it no longer served his self-interest.

-Hyp.

No, the paladin only slew it after learning it was an imp, and after the immediate danger of the battle was dealt with, which is the tactically-sound way to handle it. He wasn't continuing association with it merely by choosing not to attack it until he was no longer in immediate danger from other foes at the same time. And after the battle was over, it is certainly possible that he was trying to figure out if his honor would permit him to slay the deceptive fiend while he was sort of loosely under a temporary agreement not to harm it (which the rest of the party had made, and he just went along with as part of their group). He probably didn't participate in the search other than following his comrades afterward, until deciding whether or not he could slay the fiend yet or needed to wait for the agreement to expire.

And you are making assumptions that the imp had no intention of treachery after finding the item he sought. If the party were sufficiently weakened by that point, he could very likely have slain them all or at least one or two of the weakest or most-annoyingly-goody-two-shoesy. With its abilities it could stand a chance once they're weakened, of at least slaying one (the PCs weren't so high-level as to have an easy time hitting it, and bypassing its DR, and resisting its Poison or Suggestion.....especially since it can fly away invisibly, and wait for them to fall asleep in the first place. They can only stay awake so long.....but the Imp is no weak mortal. A Suggestion to the guard on duty, then some coup de grace's with the poison sting against the sleeping PCs while the guard is running after something in the distance according to the Suggestion.....).

 

[bodhi]

Looking over the various posts, I seem to be in a minority. I'm fine with the imp-smiting. My question (which I don't think the OP has clarified, although I may have missed it), is when the imp was revealed. Did the paladin move to smite immediately, or did he turn a blind eye while it was his own (party's) interest?

 

[Arkhandus]

Actually, it isn't. To pull in other non-core sources, since the core sources are quiet and we need sources like MotP and BoED, I look to the Sanctified Template in the BoED. Power-arguments aside, of course, this template specifically calls out outsiders. Sanctified outsiders gain the good subtype and lose the following subtypes: baatezu (devil), tanar'ri (demon), and yugoloth. Even more specifically, if a creature has a fiendish template it loses that.

My point is not that I am twisting your words to make my points, but thanks for the charge against me! My point is that D&D Core is quiet on the issue. Non-Core speaks to the possibility of sanctification and redemption in the BoED. I admit that it is a hard process, but clearly possible. You may say it is impossible in your game, and that's cool. But D&D as published by WoTC has officially left the door open.

As for the MoTP, I'm not arguing that the demons and devils are notoriously evil. I'm just saying that it isn't as black and white as you paint it. I honestly don't know if the MoTP specifically says that Demons, Devils, Yugoloths, Inevitables, Angels, Solars, Guardinals, Eladrins, or Archons are uncorruptable from their predetermined alignment. But I do note that the BoED says that sanctification is possible for outsiders.

That isn't black and white to me. That is shades of gray (no matter how dim the possibility). Sanctification is always a possibility, even with fiends. Not an easy one, granted. but still a possibility.

EDIT: Also, I should note that the process of sanctification is covered by the spell Sanctify the Wicked in the BoED p. 106. Again, this spell calls out specifically how the soul is removed from an evil creature and allowed to perform penance in a diamond. This spell is 9th level and requires the sacrifice of a character level. Not easy, but possible.

So. Rare and expensive means can actually be taken by mortal clerics or something to try redeeming a fiend, assuming they can make the fiend obey long enough to force it under the process, or to trap it long enough to argue it away from the path of evil and then try to use powerful magics to make it forsake evil once its will has been worn down.

And because someone can, with a Herculean effort and extremely rare circumstances, and nearly Epic levels of personal power, manage to make a fiend give up its evil ways and become a redeemed Outsider.....that makes it somehow badwrong to expect the vast, vast majority of fiends to be irredeemable and far too dangerous to allow surviving? That's supposed to make it badwrong for Paladins to slay fiends, as they have sworn to do? Especially low level ones who have nowhere near the resources necessary to even make the slightest, least-likely-for-success attempt at drawing a fiend away from its pure-evil nature?

 

[Hypersmurf]

And you are making assumptions that the imp had no intention of treachery after finding the item he sought.

I'm not going to guarantee the imp had no scheme up its sleeve. But a paladin shouldn't be engaging in preemptive treachery on a maybe.

-Hyp.

 

[Arkhandus]

If Good cannot smite evil fiends for being fiends, then your campaigns must truly be gloomy, doom-filled places, NonlethalForce. Fiends certainly have no compunctions against slaying their enemies, and will easily overwhelm Good forces if every dang Good creature must avoid harming evil creatures, even fiends, except when absolutely, immediately, direly necessary at that very moment.

D&D doesn't work that way. Fiends exist to be smited by paladins and celestials/angels. They are not composed of Raw Evil just so you can debate the morality of slaying creatures composed of Raw Primordial Cosmic Evil.