Paladin Actions - Appropriate?

[RigaMortus2]

In your example, nothing is prohibiting said cruiser from having to stay in that room, change rooms with someone else or even stay on the ship and not get off at the next port. That example has next to nothing to do with the OP's post.

All viable options. Should the cruiser also be allowed to kill his ex-college room mate?

 

[SlagMortar]

Quote:

What if there were a town full of defenseless commoners just over the hill and the imp was headed that way?

What if there wasn't?

To me? It doesn't matter. As I said previously, the fiend's existance is a threat to the good people of the prime material plane.

I was hoping with the question to narrow down how immediate and probable the threat must be in order to make breaking the agreement the best choice. Assuming in all cases the imp's back is turned, should the paladin break the agreement if:
the imp is attacking a commoner?
the imp is attacking a passing guard who is overmatched, but might win without the paladin's help?
the imp is smiling and moving toward a commoner who is 50 feet away?
the imp is smiling and moving toward a commoner who is 500 feet away?
the imp is no where near any commoners, but says "Aha! Now that I have my new toy, its time to torture some peasants"?
the imp is heading toward a viliage full of defenseless commoners?
the imp is leaving on a major roadway, but the paladin does not know how close the closest town in that direction is?
the imp starts to leave after saying "Hooray! <insert name of devil overlord here> will be most pleased with his new acquisition."

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm sorry but I read it as saying that a paladin's code of conduct must include these. . . .

Not that that is the entire Code of Conduct.

Ah! Okay. Then I agree.

I thought you were saying "You can play a PHB paladin with a code that doesn't include 'Act with honor', since that's only an example".

I think that as written, a PHB paladin's code automatically includes 'Act with honor'... and it sounds like so do you.

I think you could have one PHB paladin whose code also includes "Don't drink alcohol" and a second PHB paladin whose code doesn't. But the bits that appear in the Class Feature description are non-negotiable.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

To me? It doesn't matter. As I said previously, the fiend's existance is a threat to the good people of the prime material plane.

I was hoping with the question to narrow down how immediate and probable the threat must be in order to make breaking the agreement the best choice. Assuming in all cases the imp's back is turned, should the paladin break the agreement if:
the imp is attacking a commoner?
the imp is attacking a passing guard who is overmatched, but might win without the paladin's help?
the imp is smiling and moving toward a commoner who is 50 feet away?
the imp is smiling and moving toward a commoner who is 500 feet away?
the imp is no where near any commoners, but says "Aha! Now that I have my new toy, its time to torture some peasants"?
the imp is heading toward a viliage full of defenseless commoners?
the imp is leaving on a major roadway, but the paladin does not know how close the closest town in that direction is?
the imp starts to leave after saying "Hooray! <insert name of devil overlord here> will be most pleased with his new acquisition."

I see your point, but they are still all "what ifs" and there can be an infinite amount of questions like that with an infinite amount of answers. So rather than go through every single "what if" scenario, I prefer to deal with the one at hand.

FWIW, to give you a better (more broad) answer... I think each case should be looked at individually. Given the circumstances of the OP, without knowning any more than we already do, and without making broad assumptions, I don't think killing the Imp was the Paladin's best choice or option. I think if it were any other LG person, the choice of killing the imp would not be under as much scrutiny... But I like to keep Paladins to a higher standard than average LG characters, and if there is an option that is more viable to pick, they should pick it.

Given the choice of not killing the imp and letting it go, but warning it not to cross your path again if it valued its life is the more honorable one vs just smiting it and voiding your agreement. Both actions are not evil. Both actions are not good. But only one action is honorable, and one action is dishonorable. Breaking your word is breaking your word, no matter who you give it to. And if the Paladin was so concerned about being involved in an agreement with a possible enemy, he should have spoke up.

Really, when it comes down to it, I think the player of the Paladin is to blame for not taking a more active role in the agreement. Even if his intentions were not to agree at all, for the sake of his friends (and their souls) he should have been more involved in the discussion with the invisible creature. I mean, they can Detect Evil at will. Doesn't that tell you something about the player if he chose not to use it? Every player I know has Detect Evil on speed dial, heh.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Nobody knew it was an imp when they made the deal. He says he wasn't involved in the making of the deal. He was about 20 feet away by the door of the house they were bursting into.

I'm not so worked up about the attack, more that he totally blindsided the imp and the party with his action.

To roll this almost all the way back, there's a significant issue here for the party and the players.... Regardless of whether the paladin actions were appropriate, I think the player actions were inappropriate both in breaking a group agreement and lamely justifying it afterwards. This sort of behavior has the potential for "And now you better metagame accepting my actions even as I refuse to apologize, because I'm a PC" written all over it. I have been in far too many groups where the party unrealisticly held on to loose cannon disruptive members because one player was taking advantage of the team player mentality of the others (and occasionally claiming they were a better roleplayer for "just playing my character".)

If all the players were actually thrilled by the paladin's actions but just roleplaying a conflict they look forward to having again in the future, you can of course ignore this advice.

If the Paladin does not make any concessions to in the future participating in party deal making and accepting that he is bound by their agreements, and it seems the other party members are letting the incident drop due to players not wanting conflict, I strongly suggest that you step in as a DM speaking to players, not a god speaking to the paladin. In most groups, either everyone has to occasionally metagame a little to keep "the party" together, a few people end up metagaming a lot and possibly feeling bitter about it, or you stop metagaming completely and take the conversation to it's logical in character conclusion where the party gives the paladin an ultimatum about ether being part of the group and bound by group agreements (which he may ask to have strong input into) or not being part of the group and going his own way. For some groups, the last option is the prefered one, for some the first, but I find the middle option only works for the "I'm just playing my character" guy.

 

[irdeggman]

Ah! Okay. Then I agree.

I thought you were saying "You can play a PHB paladin with a code that doesn't include 'Act with honor', since that's only an example".

I think that as written, a PHB paladin's code automatically includes 'Act with honor'... and it sounds like so do you.

I think you could have one PHB paladin whose code also includes "Don't drink alcohol" and a second PHB paladin whose code doesn't. But the bits that appear in the Class Feature description are non-negotiable.

-Hyp.

Yes that is what I meant (for a standard PHB paladin) - the things listed in the PHB must be part of his Code of Conduct.

But, unlike some who have posted with a differing opinion, I don't believe that it is a required part of the standard PHB CoC to kill all evil creatures (just because they can Smite Evil doesn't mean they have to).

The only thing it says on this regard is that they must "punish those who harm and threaten innocents" and

they also cannot "knowingly associate with evil characters nor those who consistently offend her morale code."

This is following immediately under the description of "alignment" so I do not believe this is automatic for creatures with the "evil" subtype.

Can a child of a fiend be innocent?

How about child age goblins?

 

[bodhi]

If the Paladin does not make any concessions to in the future participating in party deal making and accepting that he is bound by their agreements,

This reminded me of:

The only explanations a paladin owes are to his deity, not to his friends, or even his church or government, but to the one that supplies his power and directs him.

With which I disagree. Granted, a paladin's ultimate allegiance is to his deity. However, if he is part of an organization, be it adventurer party, church, or government, which he has joined of his own free will, then he has obligations to that organization. Sometimes it might be spelled out in a contract: I, the undersigned, agree to blah blah blah. Sometimes it might involve an oath: I swear to uphold the tenets of the Brotherhood, defend and assist my Brothers, etc, etc.

With a party, the obligations probably wouldn't be explicitly defined. I think almost every party would take for granted A) working together and not at cross-purposes (at least most of the time), and B) actively assisting each other (including buffs, healing, flanking, etc). I think most groups would, sooner or later, hash out division of treasure. And I think that being bound by an agreement made by the group (but not you personally) would be a reasonable assumption. And that if you were to break such an agreement then, as part of the group, you would owe the group an explanation.

Imagine if the paladin, in parley, granted safe passage to a human necromancer. Then, once the necromancer passes the paladin, the rogue backstabs, killing the necromancer, saying "I never granted him safe passage, you did". IMHO, the paladin would be clearly justified in being upset, and demanding an explanation.


That being said, I'd still like to know just when the paladin found out the ally was an imp, and how he proceeded at that point.

"I've been deceived, our agreement is null and void! *smite*" Fine by me. Perhaps not the most prudent move if combat hadn't been resolved, but fine.

"I've been deceived, but I have bigger fish to fry." or "I've been deceived, but I will honor my word." followed by "But we will have business between us when this is done.", I'm also okay with. Perhaps a little less righteous, but also more prudent.

"I've been deceived, but the imp makes my job easier, so I'll keep my mouth shut for now. I can always smite later." That's the one I have a problem with. This attitude indicates a willingness to actively work with (capital E) Evil as long as it's in the paladin's interest.

Note that IMHO all of this can be the paladin's internal monologue. So, in this case at least, it's not about specific actions, but motivations. It's the difference between being forced to work with the imp (either because of the agreement or because it's the only chance for success), and choosing to do so. I'll grant it's a subtle difference, but I think it's an important one, especially for a paladin.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Can a child of a fiend be innocent?

The child of a fiend, assuming the Half-Fiend template, is still an evil outsider. Interesting question.

Here's another scenario for the "Kill all Evil Outsiders! Always! Immediately!" folks:


Sir Percival is a world-renowned demon slayer--he has been for many years. His parents were slain by demons, and he found his path when the God of Justice answered his prayers and offered him the Lawful and Holy might to defeat those Chaotic Evil outsiders and rid the land of their scourge. That is when Sir Percival became a Paladin.

He and his wife of ten years, a lady warrior named Anya, have slain demons together since they met, stopping dozens of major plots by various demon lords to exploit the powerful nexuses of axiomatic energy that are prevalent in Percival's homeland and make it a target--long ago, the demons began a sinister plan here, but great wardens of Law set up these nexuses. If the nexuses were tainted with chaos, the land would begin to melt, and it could be merged with the Abyss. With Percival's Holy Blade and Aegis Shield and Anya's Longsword, +1 Flaming Composite Longbow, and Magic Rope, they have entrusted their lives to one another and held off against the demons together.

Percival and Anya are deeply in love. Lately, they have been forced to scale back their assaults a bit because of the newest member of their family, their young daughter Erin, a cute, cheerful, and inquisitive young girl of 6. Cue the scene:

PERCIVAL: Time for bed sweetie
ERIN: Okay. I love you Daddy!

Erin gives Percival a big hug and heads off to bed, but Percival frowns. He calls out to the kitchen--

P: Honey?
Anya: Yes, my love?
P: Can you come here, please? There's something that's bothering me.
A: Of course, dear. I'm baking cookies. It is Erin's birthday tomorrow after all. But shh, that's going to be a surprise
P: Right, right...but, look, I've never tried this intentionally because it just seemed paranoid, but the other day when I was walking to town with Erin, I saw a vagrant who looked like he might be evil and used Detect Evil. Well, the vagrant wasn't after all, but Erin gave off a Moderate aura of Evil. How is that even possible? I thought it might be local disturbances or something wrong with my powers, but I've tried it again and again, and I'm getting the same reading on my evil-dar.

Anya gives a deep and regretful sigh

A: I knew this day would come eventually, my love. It seems our perfect life is at an end.
P: What in the world do you...?
A: It would have become obvious sooner or later, when she hit adolescence and started growing wings. I'm just surprised she has 2 Hit Dice at the age of 6, maybe because she's advanced like me.
P: Wings? Okay honey, that's not funny.

Anya sighs again.

A: It's not a joke, my love. My real name isn't Anya. It's Anyiel. I'm an Erinyes--a Fallen Angel. Since time immemorial, it has been my task to protect those Axiomatic nexuses from demonic control, first when I served the hosts of Heaven, and now for my dark masters in Baator.
P: Okay, stop this. You're a woman of honour, so stop this lying. Are you trying to cover for something Erin did? I know you. You've never committed an evil act as long as we've been together.
A: No dear, I'm afraid I'm telling the truth. I fell from grace because I was willing to use any means necessary to protect the nexuses, and it required some dark means indeed, but I found that those in Hell approved of what I had done and offered me a new home with my old job back. But...I fell in love with the champion whose resolve to kill demons and protect the nexuses matched my own. A part of me envied you that you could do it and maintain your morals. I've been able to get away with not committing any evil deeds because I'm doing exactly as the dark masters demand...I knew I couldn't continue alone without you, for both practically for your mighty holy power and because of my smitten heart, so I didn't commit any evil acts because I know that it would then violate your code of conduct to associate with me.
P: It can't be...but you're not evil, you're my...

Anya bursts into hysterical tears and shouts:

A: If you don't believe me, look!

She uses Alternate Form to revert to her true form and rips off the tiny gold ring with the Celestial writing on it that she's worn for all this time and never removed.

A: There, now try to Detect Evil again without my ring!

Percival uses Detect Evil and finds an Overwhelming aura of Evil.

***P: Holy Erroneous Heironeous! You tricked the ability with that ring! You're...

Anyiel looks down at the floor, downcast and devastated.

A: I am. I know you can never associate with me again, so I'll just leave. But please, I want you to raise Erin here. She'll be persecuted enough for her strange features, but I think she can still keep the purity of heart and kindness of spirit that has been lost to me forever, if only she has a loving father who cares about her. If I took her back to Hell, she would become nothing more than another Devil...And please, I know you have to act with honour, but we still tell Erin about the tooth fairy, so you understand that sometimes comfortable little tales are important to help children live comfortable lives...
P: Actually, the tooth fairy is real. She's actually a Nixie named Lydentia. I met her once when the demons tried to invade the Faerie Woods.
A: Alright, but anyway, could you just tell Erin that I died fighting a demon...At least she won't think as ill of me as you do and live knowing her mother is a monster. I will leave you now forever, my love. You won't see me ever again...

Tears of loss continue to stream down Anyiel's face as she turns her back to Percival, unable to face him any longer, and waits for his answer before she leaves. She thinks to herself--

A: Though this loss hurts dearly, I should look on the bright side. At least I'll be able to perform evil acts again--that corrupt part of my soul has been killing me on the inside from all this holding in.


What does Percival do? I'll post below the list of possible choices I can think of, but you can pick your own!

 

[Rystil Arden]

Okay, you're Percival. What do you do?

A) You agree to raise Erin in a loving one-parent household and to tell Erin that her mother died fighting demons. Anyiel turns around, smiles through her tears, gives you one last hug (or tries to but notices the way you recoil in horror at the thought of touching such a filthy creature and cries some more) and Teleports away. Then you do what you said and raise Erin.

B) As (A), but then after Anyiel is gone, you kill Erin. Agreements with Evil Outsiders? Ha! Those don't count! And you killed an Evil Outsider! Score!

C) As (A) but you refuse to agree to tell Erin the story, so you tell her her mother is a monstrous devil from Hell. Her friends say that's what all their dads who are divorced tell them too during the weekends the dad has custody.

D) When Anyiel turns around, you lop off her head. Smiting Sneak Attack--Banzaiiiiii! Score! That's one less Evil Outsider in the world. Then you raise Erin anyway, though you're probably a bit disgusted by her at the same time.

E) When Anyiel turns around, you lop off her head. Score! One down and one to go!--Too bad they weren't five feet from each other or you could cleave! Oh well, you bash into Erin's room and slit her throat. You can cleave to her Teddy Bear or her crayon drawing with a little girl (labeled 'Me') and a bigger man (labeled 'Daddy') and a big heart that says "I Love Daddy!" instead.

F) Huh? Whatchoo talking about Rystil? I don't have to make this choice because we'd never make it to this point. See the place with triple asterisk marked *** in your dialogue. That's where the bitch is dead. Right after I detected Evil and she turned into her true form. THERE CAN BE NO MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES FOR DETECTING AS EVIL! BANZAI!!!!!!

G) I'll drop my Paladin status and let Anyiel stay and be Erin's mother. Children in broken homes don't turn out as well, plus maybe I'll be able to redeem Anyiel if I love her enough, or something.

H) As (B), (D), (E), or (F), except you challenge Anyiel/Erin/Both to a duel before you kill them.

I) Your option here!

 

[SlagMortar]

Here's another scenario for the "Kill all Evil Outsiders! Always! Immediately!" folks:

Why is that just a question for the "Kill all Evil Outsiders! Always! Immediately!" folks? That sounds like a dilly of a pickle no matter what your paladin's beliefs.