Paladin as Prestige Class

[Nifft]

Here's my version of the Paladin-as-PrC. Comments about balance, requirements, etc. are very welcome! I'm thinking of making it a 10-level PrC, but it could be extended into Epic levels by adding Epic Paladin Special Abilities.

EDIT: I changed many things, beefing up some PSAs and making the requirements more sane (easier). Note too that a Paladin now gets two PSAs per level.


PALADIN (Pal)

Requirements:
* Alignment: Lawful Good
* BAB: +4
* Knowlege (religion): 4 ranks
* Special: Must worship a deity who supports Lawful Good priests, and be in good standing with the church of that deity.

Class Skills:
* Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex) and Sense Motive (Wis).
* Skill points per level: 2 + Int modifier

Class Features:
* Hit Die: d10
* BAB Progression: As Fighter
* Good Saving Throws: Will
* Bad Saving Throws: Fortitude and Reflex
* A Paladin gains no weapon or armor proficiencies.
* A Paladin does not gain any spells.
* Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all special class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of evil. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc.), help those who need help (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those that harm or threaten innocents.
* Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters. A paladin will not continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may only hire henchmen or accept followers who are lawful good.
* Divine Grace: The Paladin may add her Paladin levels to all saves, up to a maximum bonus equal to her Charisma bonus.
* Special Abilities: Every level the Paladin may choose two Paladin Special Ability (PSA). Some PSAs have one or more other PSA as prerequisites.

Paladin Special Abilities:

Turn Undead: (Su)
- The paladin can Turn Undead as a Cleric of the same level. If the character also has Cleric levels, her Paladin and Cleric levels stack. The Paladin may Turn Undead once per day.

Extra Turning: (Su) Prereq: PSA Turn Undead
- The Paladin may Turn Undead two extra times per day. This ability may be taken multiple times.

Divine Courage: (Ex)
- The Paladin is immune to all fear effects, and gains a +2 Morale bonus against all hostile effects which contain the Mind-Affecting descriptor.

Divine Health: (Ex)
- The Paladin is immune to all diseases, natural or magical, and gains a +2 Luck bonus to all saves vs. poison.

Divine Healing: (Su)
- The Paladin may channel divine energy to heal damage. She may heal a total of [Paladin Level * Cha modifier] Hit Points per day to herself or another. She may divide the healing up among multiple subjects if she wishes.

Divine Smite: (Su)
- The Paladin may call upon her deity to grant favor to her attacks as a free action. The Paladin adds her Charisma modifier to her attack rolls for 10 rounds. This ability is usable once per day.

Sure Striking Smite: (Su) Prereq: Divine Smite
- For the duration of a Paladin's Smite, the Paladin's melee weapon is treated as +5 with respect to what it can hit.

Divine Remove Disease: (Sp) Prereq: Divine Health
- The Paladin may Remove Disease (as the spell) once per week.

Aura of Courage: (Su) Prereq: Divine Courage
- Any of the Paladin's allies within 10' of her gain a +2 Morale bonus to saves vs. fear effects. The Paladin also gains a +2 Circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks vs. evil outsiders.

Extra Smite: (Su) Prereq: Divine Smite
- The Paladin may use her Devine Smite ability two extra times per day. This ability may be taken multiple times.

Extended Smite: (Su) Prereq: Divine Smite
- The Paladin's Smite ability lasts an extra 10 rounds. This ability may be taken multiple times.

Extra Healing: (Su) Prereq: Divine Healing
- The Paladin may cure an additional [2 * Cha modifier] HP each day. This ability may be taken multiple times.

Extra Remove Disease: (Sp) Prereq: Divine Remove Disease
- The Paladin may Remove Disease (as the spell) twice more per week. This ability may be taken multiple times.

Extended Aura: (Su) Prereq: Aura of Courage
- The Paladin's aura extends an additional 10', grants allies an additional +1 to their save vs. fear effects, and gives the Paladin an additional +1 bonus when Intimidating evil outsiders. This ability may be taken multiple times.

Imbued Aura: (Su) Prereq: Aura of Courage
- The Paladin's aura grants allies a Morale bonus against all effects with the Mind-Affecting descriptor, not just fear effects.

Imbued Smite: (Su) Prereq: Divine Smite
- The Paladin chooses one kind of evil foe (Outsiders, Undead, Priests of Evil Gods, need more specific examples). For the duration of the Paladin's Smite, she deals Holy damage to foes of that type. This ability may be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different kind of foe.


EDIT: changed lots of stuff...

 

[Derrick Reeves]

PALADIN (Pal)

Requirements:
* Alignment: Lawful Good
* BAB: +4
* Knowlege (religion): 4 ranks
* Sense Motive: 4 ranks
* Feats: Weapon Focus (Deity's favored weapon)
* Special: Must worship a deity that grants the War domain and be in good standing with the church of that deity.

Interesting. I see you're taking the view that Paladins are Clerics, then? The PHB write-up certainly doesn't support this view. If you're going to take it - and there's no real problem with that - you should present an alternative description.

Even given that view, the requirement to worship a diety that grants the War domain is rather too binding. Just looking at the gods in the PHB, that restricts Paladins to Heironeous, or for the bizarrely minded, Corellon Larethian or Hextor. It disallows Paladins with St. Cuthbert or Pelor as their patron, which seems absurd.

As for Weapon Focus, if Paladins have to worship Heironeous (as your other requirements imply), then Weapon Focus (Longsword) isn't really going to hurt them. Iron Will might be better. (I assume, from your choice of Saving Throw progression, that you consider all Paladins to be strong-willed. Monte's suggestion is that when you see something as being the hallmark of a PrC, make it a requirement, not an ability.)

The BAB and skill requirements are a little odd. I'm not sure what sort of characters you see becoming Paladins. Currently, the lowest level character that can gain entry into the PrC would be a 5th level Fighter or Ranger (we'll assume that Barbarians won't give up their Rage to do so) with cross-class skills. This makes the BAB requirement superfluous to them, though I can see how it affects reformed Bards.

Class Skills:
* Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex) and Sense Motive (Wis).
* Skill points per level: 2 + Int modifier

Interesting. No Craft and Profession is odd, but I suppose I can buy it. Any particular reason for Paladins being good bullies IYC?

Class Features:
* BAB Progression: As Fighter
* Good Saving Throws: Will
* Bad Saving Throws: Fortitude and Reflex
* A Paladin gains no weapon or armor proficiencies.
* A Paladin does not gain any spells.

Again, these suggest that Fighter (or Ranger) -> Paladin is all you had envisaged. Bard -> Paladin could be interesting, actually. 6th level to qualify, and with this version you can throw away your 6 skill points to crawl through to Inspire Greatness - is this what you had in mind? The high Charisma would be good synergy, after all.

* Divine Grace: The Paladin may add her Paladin levels to all saves, up to a maximum bonus equal to her Charisma bonus.

This is to make the PrC less "front-loaded", I presume?

* Turn Undead: (Su) Prereq: Cha 12+
The paladin can Turn Undead as a Cleric of the same level. If the character also has Cleric levels, her Paladin and Cleric levels stack. The Paladin may Turn Undead once per day.

* Extra Turning: (Su) Prereq: PSA Turn Undead
The Paladin may Turn Undead two extra times per day. This ability may be taken multiple times.

I suggest that you give Turn Undead a requirement of Cha 13+ - odd numbers seem to be de rigeur for prerequisites - or none. Further, Extra Turning should be getting the feat as a bonus, both to avoid confusion and to make it worth having.

I'd also recommend having an ability pick to increase the Paladin's Turning Level.

* Divine Courage: (Ex)
The Paladin is immune to all fear effects.

* Divine Health: (Ex)
The Paladin is immune to all diseases, natural or magical.

Taken individually, these suck.

* Divine Healing: (Su) Prereq: Cha 12+
The Paladin may channel divine energy to heal damage. She may heal a total of [Paladin Level * Cha modifier] Hit Points per day to herself or another. She may divide the healing up among multiple subjects if she wishes.

Can this be taken multiple times? Extra Healing (which is weak, btw) suggests that it can't.

* Divine Smite: (Su)
The Paladin may call upon her deity to grant favor to her next strike as a free action. The Paladin adds her Charisma modifier to her first attack roll, and her Paladin levels to damage (if that blow lands). This ability is usable once per day.

This is pretty weak by comparison to the PH Paladin. Recommend that you at least add the Paladin's Charisma bonus to damage (in addition to their Class level).

The rest of the abilities weren't very interesting. Needs work.

 

[hong]

Class Features:
* BAB Progression: As Fighter
* Good Saving Throws: Will
* Bad Saving Throws: Fortitude and Reflex

It seems a bit odd to have a fighting PrC without a good Fort save.

Also, what hit die does the paladin have? Still d10?

 

[Nifft]

Re: Re: Paladin as Prestige Class

Interesting. I see you're taking the view that Paladins are Clerics, then?

I take the view that Paladins are holy warriors, servants of specific churches / gods. Clerics certainly make good Paladins, but so do Fighters, Rangers and Monks. My "iconic" Paladin starts as a multi-classed Fighter/Cleric.

Even given that view, the requirement to worship a diety that grants the War domain is rather too binding.

I took a look at the Greyhawk and FRCS pantheons, and I agree with you. Changed above.

Monte's suggestion is that when you see something as being the hallmark of a PrC, make it a requirement, not an ability.

Hmm, so perhaps a Will save of +4... that would allow three paths, either Iron Will Feat, Cleric levels or high Wisdom, any of which would make "intuitive" sense.

What do you think?

Interesting. No Craft and Profession is odd, but I suppose I can buy it. Any particular reason for Paladins being good bullies IYC?

Bullies? Cops more like. Intimidation would consist of threats of eternal damnation or application of the letter of the strictest law available. A Paladin ought to get a synergy bonus for having Knowlege(Law)... hmm, that's a good class skill, too.

Again, these suggest that Fighter (or Ranger) -> Paladin is all you had envisaged. Bard -> Paladin could be interesting, actually. 6th level to qualify, and with this version you can throw away your 6 skill points to crawl through to Inspire Greatness - is this what you had in mind? The high Charisma would be good synergy, after all.

I think the Bard's alignment keeps him from being a good match with Paladin, though I'm considering a "holy liberator" -- Chaotic Good sort of Paladin -- which would be a good match for Bards.

(Divine Grace) This is to make the PrC less "front-loaded", I presume?

Yes.

This is pretty weak by comparison to the PH Paladin. Recommend that you at least add the Paladin's Charisma bonus to damage (in addition to their Class level).

The rest of the abilities weren't very interesting. Needs work.

I hope the updated version is more to your liking. The individual abilities have been beefed up, and the Paladin now gets two of them per level.

Originally posted by hong

It seems a bit odd to have a fighting PrC without a good Fort save.

I'm counting on Divine Grace to make up for this somewhat. Would anyone consider that granting two good saves make this PrC too good? If not, perhaps Paladins should get good Fort and Will saves?

-- Nifft

 

[Guilt Puppy]

Give 'em the Fort save. The special abilities are all toned down so much that (though you get a lot of them) it doesn't hurt too much.

Also, as far as I've seen the idea of Prestige Classes is to be highly specialized -- giving nothing but the player's pick of abilities doesn't quite fit in with the idea of a regimented, elite training group. (You might change which and what abilities are granted from church to church, though.)

Oh, and BTW:

Originally posted by Derrick Reeves
The BAB and skill requirements are a little odd. I'm not sure what sort of characters you see becoming Paladins. Currently, the lowest level character that can gain entry into the PrC would be a 5th level Fighter or Ranger (we'll assume that Barbarians won't give up their Rage to do so) with cross-class skills. This makes the BAB requirement superfluous to them, though I can see how it affects reformed Bards.

It seems to me like the BAB +4 / Skills 4 ranks was designed with Ftr4/Clr1's in mind (or, really, Clr4/Ftr1)...

 

[Nifft]

Give 'em the Fort save. The special abilities are all toned down so much that (though you get a lot of them) it doesn't hurt too much.

Also, as far as I've seen the idea of Prestige Classes is to be highly specialized -- giving nothing but the player's pick of abilities doesn't quite fit in with the idea of a regimented, elite training group. (You might change which and what abilities are granted from church to church, though.)

I want to make a general PrC which is easily adapted to specific campaigns. By adding or restricting which PSAs each deity grants, you can make specific Orders of Paladin. But it's far, far easier if you have a balanced baseline to start with.

As for flexibility vs. regimentation, I'm trying to make Paladins who are appropriate to many different campaigns, and many different character concepts. The Paladin was a core class, after all -- I'd rather make it as flexible as the Fighter.

It seems to me like the BAB +4 / Skills 4 ranks was designed with Ftr4/Clr1's in mind (or, really, Clr4/Ftr1)...

Yes, exactly. I see the Paladin as a sort-of extension of the Fighter/Cleric. She effectively gives up spellcasting progression and bonus Feats in exchange for some special Paladin abilities. That's what I tried to capture in this PrC.

A Fighter4/Cleric1 would get Weapon Specialization, while a Cleric4/Fighter1 would get 2nd level Cleric spells.

Rangers and Fighters who blow a Feat on Cosmopolitan (from FRCS) could take Paladin as their 5th level, though.

-- Nifft

 

[Derrick Reeves]

EDIT: I changed many things, beefing up some PSAs and making the requirements more sane (easier). Note too that a Paladin now gets two PSAs per level.

To be honest, I think the cut-and-paste method has destroyed the class flavour of the Paladin. YMMV.

Requirements:
* Alignment: Lawful Good
* BAB: +4
* Knowlege (religion): 4 ranks
* Special: Must worship a deity who supports Lawful Good priests, and be in good standing with the church of that deity.

May I ask why, given your "generalist" stance on Paladin abilities, you have applied alignment restrictions on the character and their church? Wouldn't it make more sense to apply such restrictions to the abilities themselves?

I still think you should add Iron Will to this list.

Class Skills:
* Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex) and Sense Motive (Wis).
* Skill points per level: 2 + Int modifier

Again, if you're sticking with a generalist Paladin, the skills themselves should be customisable. (I don't agree with your stance, but I'm happy to help you build a PrC that fulfills it.)

To consider the FR pantheon, Paladins of Tyr (from your comments about Paladins and police, I'll choose this as my primary example) would probably suit this selection of skills fairly well. Appraise, Forgery, Gather Information, Search and Spot would also be approriate, though. A Paladin devoted to Ilmater, on the other hand, would have little use for Intimidate, though Animal Empathy would be cool.

Class Features:
* Good Saving Throws: Will
* Bad Saving Throws: Fortitude and Reflex

Fortitude saves should be better than this, though the Will save need not be so high.

* Divine Grace: The Paladin may add her Paladin levels to all saves, up to a maximum bonus equal to her Charisma bonus.

If you'd made the Paladin's advancement better, you wouldn't need to resort to this.

Paladin Special Abilities:

Turn Undead: (Su)
- The paladin can Turn Undead as a Cleric of the same level. If the character also has Cleric levels, her Paladin and Cleric levels stack. The Paladin may Turn Undead once per day.

Extra Turning: (Su) Prereq: PSA Turn Undead
- The Paladin may Turn Undead two extra times per day. This ability may be taken multiple times.

This is junk. All of it. Firstly, syntax and rulespeak: "...can Turn Undead as a Cleric... may Turn Undead once per day" doesn't actually make any sense - a Cleric can Turn Undead 3 + Cha mod per day, so the Paladin can't "Turn Undead as a Cleric". Extra Turning is confusing - it should work like the feat, or be removed.

Secondly, these abilities are very weak for a non-Cleric Paladin, and there's no way to improve your Turning capabilities. Lathander and Pelor should both grant impressive anti-Undead abilities... but can't, using your rules.

Still, it doesn't matter, because:

Divine Smite: (Su)
- The Paladin may call upon her deity to grant favor to her attacks as a free action. The Paladin adds her Charisma modifier to her attack rolls for 10 rounds. This ability is usable once per day.

Sure Striking Smite: (Su) Prereq: Divine Smite
- For the duration of a Paladin's Smite, the Paladin's melee weapon is treated as +5 with respect to what it can hit.

I don't suppose you expect anyone to take any abilities other than these at Pal1, do you? If you do, you're dreaming - a +4 TH for 10 rounds (forever in most D&D combats) is amazing by comparison to the rest of your offerings, and the effective +5 bonus is superb as well.

Extra Smite: (Su) Prereq: Divine Smite
- The Paladin may use her Devine Smite ability two extra times per day. This ability may be taken multiple times.

Hello Paladin special abilities #3, #4, #6, #7, #9...

Extended Smite: (Su) Prereq: Divine Smite
- The Paladin's Smite ability lasts an extra 10 rounds. This ability may be taken multiple times.

... and #5, #8, #11...

Imbued Smite: (Su) Prereq: Divine Smite
- The Paladin chooses one kind of evil foe (Outsiders, Undead, Priests of Evil Gods, need more specific examples). For the duration of the Paladin's Smite, she deals Holy damage to foes of that type. This ability may be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different kind of foe.

This might find its way in somewhere along the line as well, though it's probably easier for the Paladin to just take enough Cleric levels to get Greater Magic Weapon.

In summary: this PrC currently stinks. Allowing the player to choose abilities at each level means that the balance amongst them has to be very carefully maintained - and it hasn't.

I strongly recommend making individual advancement paths for Paladins of specific deities as examples, rather than relying on this (broken) system. (Actually, I recommend using the Paladin in the PHB along with its fluff text, but that's beside the point.)

For sake of comparison, here's a "vanilla" Paladin PrC, porting the old class concept with some slight modification to compensate for the delay in gaining the abilities and (apparently) unclear conceptualisation.

Paladin (Prestige Version)
Hit Die: d10
Prerequisites:
Base Attack Bonus +5
Feats: Great Fortitude, Iron Will
Special: Must have undertaken ritual purification and been granted absolution for prior transgressions by the Church of a Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good deity. (Typically, the granting of such absolution would require a great quest to be performed by the would-be Paladin.)

Class Features:
BAB progression: As fighter
Saving Throws: Fort +, Ref -, Will -
Spells: Use Blackguard table in DMG. A paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells. To cast a spell, the paladin must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell's level. Paladin bonus spells are based on Wisdom, and saving throws against these spells have a Difficulty Class of 10 + spell level + Wisdom modifier. When the paladin gets 0 spells of a given level, such as 0 2nd-level spells at 2nd level, the paladin gets only bonus spells. A paladin has access to any spell on the paladin spell list and can freely choose which to prepare, just as a cleric can.

A paladin prepares and casts spells just as a cleric does (though the paladin cannot use spontaneous casting to substitute a cure spell in place of a prepared spell).

A paladin's caster level is equal to her class level.

Detect Evil (Sup.): At will, the paladin can detect evil as a
spell-like ability. This ability duplicates the effects of the spell
detect evil.

Divine Grace (Ex.): At first level, a paladin applies her Charisma
modifier (if positive) as a bonus to all saving throws.

Divine Health (Ex.): At first level, a paladin is immune to all
diseases, including magical diseases.

Lay on Hands (Sup.): Starting at first level, a paladin can cure a
total number of hit points equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus (if any) times the paladin's level each day. The paladin can cure
themselves. The paladin may choose to divide her curing among multiple recipients, and he or she doesn't have to use it all at once. Lay on hands is a spell-like ability whose use is a standard action.

Alternatively, the paladin can use any or all of these points to deal
damage to undead creatures. Treat this attack just like a touch spell. The paladin decides how many cure points to use as damage after successfully touching the undead creature.

At 5th level, the total amount of curing per day increases to twice
the paladin's class level, times the paladin's Charisma bonus (if
any).

At 10th level, the total amount of curing per day increases to three times the paladin's class level, times the paladin's Charisma bonus (if any).

Turn Undead: The paladin may use this ability a number of times per day equal to three plus the paladin's Charisma modifier. The paladin turns undead as a cleric of their class level. Paladin levels stack with cleric levels for the purpose of turning undead.

Aura of Courage (Ex. and Sup.): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Allies within 10 feet of the paladin gain a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. Granting the morale bonus to allies is a supernatural ability.

Smite Evil (Sup.): Once per day, a paladin of 2nd level or higher may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma modifier (if positive) to the paladin's attack roll and deals 2 extra points of damage per class level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect but it is still used up for that day.

Remove Disease: Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin can remove disease, as per the spell remove disease, once per week. Remove disease is a spell-like ability for paladins.

At 6th level, a paladin may use this ability three times per week; and at 9th level, a paladin may use this ability five times per week.

Divine Might (Sup.): At 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to
channel the power of her divine patrons, adding a +2 sacred bonus to her Strength or Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to her 3 + her Charisma modifier (if positive). This ability may be used once per day. Calling on Divine might is a move-equivalent action. At 7th level, the bonus rises to +4, and at 10th, to +6.

Purity's Blessing: At 4th level, add +3 to the paladin's effective
level for the purposes of turning undead. At 8th level, this bonus
rises to +6.

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all special class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of evil. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect
legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not
using poison, etc.), help those who need help (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those that harm or threaten innocents.

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters. A paladin will not continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may only hire henchmen or accept followers who are lawful good.

Ex-Paladins: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully
commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all special abilities and spells. She also may not progress in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities if she atones for her
violations, as appropriate.

I realise this version isn't for everyone. However, there's really nothing in the description of a Paladin to indicate that they are any more pious than the next man - merely that they are pure of heart and blessed of the gods (or other powers of good) - if you're going to retain the name, and not add a new background, the least you could do is stick to the concept.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Out of curiosity, why don't you just take the Blackguard PrC and reverse engineer "paladin" into that?

 

[Ravellion]

Out of curiosity, why don't you just take the Blackguard PrC and reverse engineer "paladin" into that?

Or, for that matter (and slightly easier) the Holy Liberator from defenders of the faith?

Rav

 

[demadog]

sorry...mis-post.