Paladin balanced without RP/alignment restrictions?

[Elder-Basilisk]

That's funny, I would say that a paladin is a better tank without big damage dealers in the party.

If the party has a max-strength half-orc power attacking fighter/barbarian with a two handed weapon, the "tank" paladin will spend his time a second-rate threat (because he doesn't deal as much damage, it's not as vital to the bad guys to take him down) and his defensive powers won't matter as much because the low-defense fighter will absorb most of the punishment. Since the damage-dealer will suck up all of the party's healing in very short order, the party doesn't get any greater staying power by having a defensive paladin.

On the other hand, if the party does not have a big damage dealer, a lot of the attacks that were aimed at the damage dealer and hit will be aimed at the paladin (and will miss). Then the party has more staying power.

If you have big damage dealers in your party, then a paladin is a better tank because they are great at avoiding damage not dealing damage. Less damage taken equals less healing needed which means the party has greater staying power.

I did not want to seem to be down on paladins, but the half-orc/dwarven power attacking fighter is the king of melee damage dealing. Paladins are the king of avoiding damage. Which class is better? The class that fits the rest of the party better.

-Psiblade

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm curious what makes the fighter such a clear superior to the paladin in direct melee damage, other than what I've mentioned.

More feats. That's the big one. A first level paladin has weapon focus OR power attack. A first level fighter has both. At second level, the fighter adds cleave, and the paladin stays the same. And so on and so forth. Don't underestimate the power of feats.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

More feats. That's the big one. A first level paladin has weapon focus OR power attack. A first level fighter has both. At second level, the fighter adds cleave, and the paladin stays the same. And so on and so forth. Don't underestimate the power of feats.

Good advice, but I think it's also important not to overestimate the power of feats. Most of them are situationally useful, but not indiscriminately powerful, and thus a lot of the fighter's tricks are as situational as the paladin's special abilities, or so it seems to me. Cleave/Great Cleave require a series of low HD critters to be worth much. (Took a fighter up to 12th myself, and had only a handful of uses for this.) Others are similar.

Weapon Focus/Specialization and Greater WF/S, Improved Critical, these are the feats that add concrete damage to a fighter's arsenal, and by mid-levels a paladin will have most of them as well.

Or so it seems to me.

 

[Celtavian]

My question is this: If what Celtavian says is true, and Paladins are somehow overpowered, how is the alignment restriction going to change that in a meaningful way? How is being a lawful good overpowered character going to be that much less disruptive than being a neutral good overpowered character?

Now the multiclass restriction may prevent some potential problematic combos, but I dont see where the alignment thing makes a difference


although, I do not think paladins are overpowered, it has been stated that roleplaying factors are not used to balance mechanical ones, and I feel that removing many of the RP restrictions on the Paladin class would be a great service to the game

I've seen a lot of threads involving discussion of the problems caused in groups by some interpretations of the whole Paladin Code thing...and some times pretty big problems caused by just it as is.

I don't really remember stating that Paladins were overpowered. I said they were the most powerful of the melee classes if played up as a single class. Other people brought up multiclassing.

I still think they are the most powerful of the melee classes. They are extremely versatile offensively and defensively. That makes them a very potent melee class.

I already stated that for pure melee damage, a fighter or barbarian is the strongest. A Paladin isn't too far behind and has several defensive advantages.

The strongest melee builds usually involve a combination fighter/paladin or fighter/barbarian. Alot of people multiclass, especially in our campaigns. One of the few classe I see people play up as a straight class in the Paladin to gain full advantage of their capabilities. Those smites are nice when fighting BBEG's as is the LOH and the powerful mount.

The Paladin is class most easily abused by power gamers or loose DMing. If you allow a player to really trick out their Paladin with a non-horse mount, a good stat enhancing Charisma item, and some non-core spells and feats from the Complete Divine, you can really garner some power. They have the best spell selection of any of the casting fighter types for recovering from attacks.

I still think without a roleplay restriction to deter power gamers, the Paladin class would be more open for abuse.

 

[The Souljourner]

I still think without a roleplay restriction to deter power gamers, the Paladin class would be more open for abuse.

I think that's the key here... you think the roleplay restriction is going to deter power gamers... I don't. Power gamers don't care if there's a roleplay restriction... they'll just cheese that out too.

The roleplay restriction only comes into play out of combat, whereas their abilities almost all come into play *in* combat. Their restrictions don't balance their advantages... but that's ok, because their advantages aren't that great.

-The Souljourner

 

[Merlion]

I still think without a roleplay restriction to deter power gamers, the Paladin class would be more open for abuse.

You didnt answer my question. How does the roleplaying restriction deter this?

 

[Psiblade]

I should have stated that if the party has a lot of non-melee damage dealers then a paladin is the best tank for the group. If you have a high damage archers or casters, then a paladin makes the best tank IMHO.

Paladins only have 6 feats at level 15. Most paladins I have met have the divine feats like divine might, divine vigor, etc. A lot of paladins also like the mounted feats to get the most use of their mounts. With only six feats, you are really limited in what you can take. Feats like close combat fighting can turn the tide of a battle and are used mostly by fighters. The lack of feats is definitely a weakness of paladins.

-Psiblade

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

As far as I can tell, the fighter has the following advantages over the paladin, as far as melee damage dealing:

* Access to Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization.
* Reliance on fewer stats, giving him an advantage in a point-buy campaign.

Everything else is either available to both paladin and fighter (Power Attack), or adds to versatility, but not directly to melee damage (technique feats such as Improved Trip or Improved Disarm that a paladin can't afford.)

I'm curious what makes the fighter such a clear superior to the paladin in direct melee damage, other than what I've mentioned.

Other than those you mention, I would add:
Improved Initiative, Mobility, Spring Attack
Cleave, Greater Cleave
Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes

The first three are about getting into an optimal position based on the situation for offense or defense. I can't tell you how many times my frontline Paladin has been thrashed in the first 1 - 1 1/2 rounds of combat and forced to retreat. Getting a higher initiative or added protection when repositioning would mean I would not need to take a Withdraw action.

The next two multiply whatever damage dealing capabilities you have, though this is somewhat campaign dependent.

The last two give a lot of tactical control.

Now it is hardly unusual for a Paladin to have one of these feats, maybe two in the long run. As a practical matter the Paladin must choose either Power Attack + Divine Might and/or Spirited Charge in stay within a country mile of the Fighter in damage dealing. There just aren't many feats to spare elsewhere.

The Fighter will have more feats and the stat flexibility to stack these up early in, multplying and remultiplying their effect. Frex, Spring Attack + Cleave + Combat Reflexes + reach weapon gives the Fighter an enormous tactical footprint that increases the effectiveness of the entire party while he is opening that big can of whoop@$$. I would note that advantageous Flanks happen a lot around Fighters with Spring Attack. Not only does the Fighter get that flank (yielding a "free" +2 or +4 damage) but his buddy does as well.