Paladin Design Goals ... WotC Blog


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The only thing I saw in that list that said "distinct paladin" to me was the code. Everything else could just as well be some variation on fighter/cleric. The code itself would make a great theme (or set of themes). It's a shame that the prior history will lock us into paladin as a class.
 

The only thing I saw in that list that said "distinct paladin" to me was the code. Everything else could just as well be some variation on fighter/cleric. The code itself would make a great theme (or set of themes). It's a shame that the prior history will lock us into paladin as a class.

Well, yes, the code is what distinguishes a paladin from a fighter/cleric variation.

Maybe the 5e design would be cleaner if rangers and paladins were just fighter (or fighter/cleric, or fighter/druid) themes, but I would hope that we don't get too much unwanted complexity from a true paladin class. So long as WotC feels like it can borrow from the fighter and cleric for maneuvers and spells, I wouldn't think that we lose a lot by calling out certain long time archetypes as separate classes.

-KS
 

It seems like of all the classes they've detailed so far, paladin is the one with which they've had the most trouble breaking free of the past. It's kind of disappointing. They seem chained to these old concepts, it even comes out in the wording they use. The paladin doesn't HAVE to be good, but he sees and smites evil? Also the mount concept shows up way more than I'm comfortable with in a "high-level overview"

Hopefully in the finished product everything except Point 1 gets pushed more to the optional edges.
 

Well, we've got confirmation that paladins won't be alignment restricted (at least not to LG). That's a positive step.

And yet somehow they smite evil? Huh?

The only thing I saw in that list that said "distinct paladin" to me was the code. Everything else could just as well be some variation on fighter/cleric. The code itself would make a great theme (or set of themes). It's a shame that the prior history will lock us into paladin as a class.
On one hand, I kind of agree. In 3e nomenclature, a paladin is rightfully a prestige class. In 5e, it probably should be considered a theme or somesuch.

On the other hand, how many classes in D&D can this be said about? What is the difference between a druid and a cleric who worships nature in some way? How are barbarian and monk not fighter variants? Why don't wizard and sorcerer both fall under "mage"? D&D has a lot of arbitrarily defined classes that I think are just too easy to use and too hard to get rid of. It's part of the game. All we can hope for is that it will be done well.
 

Well, yes, the code is what distinguishes a paladin from a fighter/cleric variation.

Maybe the 5e design would be cleaner if rangers and paladins were just fighter (or fighter/cleric, or fighter/druid) themes, but I would hope that we don't get too much unwanted complexity from a true paladin class. So long as WotC feels like it can borrow from the fighter and cleric for maneuvers and spells, I wouldn't think that we lose a lot by calling out certain long time archetypes as separate classes.

I'm of two minds about that, and my reservation is that D&D designers always seem to want to meld those two minds instead of recognizing their polar opposite nature. Maybe there is a good way to meld them, consistently, but I keep seeing design problems spring out of the attempt (albeit not always the paladin).

On the one hand, if a paladin is merely a fighter/cleric hybrid, with a bit of character flavor tacked on (the code), then I would expect the fighter and cleric bits to readily stack with fighter or cleric in a multiclass. A character that took half his levels in paladin and half in cleric, I'd expect to be about a 3/4 cleric (or maybe 2/3 cleric, depending on the exact mix). I'd expect the divine spell casting and turning, for example, to be about equal to a cleric of that derived level. That's one viable way of doing a class, as a convenient short-hand for hybrids.

On the other hand, if the paladin is really a distinct class, then I expect the code to do more than be a bit of character flavor. I expect it to be the hinge around which the synergy of fighter and cleric is woven into something notably different than a fighter/cleric multiclass of the same level. That means it has to interact with the fighter-type and cleric-type abilities mechanically in some ways. (Simple example off the top of my head. When a paladin turns undead or demons, it works the same way as it does for a cleric as far as odds, numbers, power, etc. However, the effects are somewhat different. Perhaps the cleric is more focused on causing such creatures to cower and then flee and then be "banished", where the paladin causes them to weaken and eventually turn to dust.)

I don't mind either version. Whichever one is chosen, I'd like it to be consistent across all such hybrid classes, because the choice has a huge effect on how multiclassing can and should work. I don't like a "mushy meld" of the two methods that more or less claims the feel of the latter, but mechanically is the first. You end up with the worst of both worlds, a paladin that is supposedly different, but who if he multiclassed with fighter or cleric would notably weaken himself.

Finally, and separate from the above, I like the idea of a paladin theme, because I like the idea of wizards or rogues or fighters or even clerics taking a vow for such a code later in their career, independent of heavy armor and the like.
 

Personally, I'm curious as to how they'll manage the Detect Evil aspect of the Paladin.

It's always been something I've been rather uncertain about, both as a player who has played many paladins and as a GM. Primarily because so often it gets used as an "evildar": See evil, smite evil, see evil, smite evil.

That's not to say I don't like it as a class feature, but I'd want to see it restricted so that it's not being used on every single person they met.
 

A paladin is to a cleric what a spy is to a diplomat.

A cleric's abilities should be about sheparding and protecting the faithful. The paladin is an instrument of war. A cleric's abilities should in many ways be defensive - buffs, protections and occasional augmentation. While the cleric sometimes has to step forward to do battle against his faith's enemies, it's the paladin who rushes past, noting "I got this".

A paladin's abilities should be primarily offensive. If he has defensive abilities, they should be secondary in nature, designed primarily to augment the paladin to repel or withstand an attack. His ability to provide protection to others should be limited, often done by putting himself in harm's way to shield another.

In practical terms, where the cleric gets Protection from Evil 10' Radius, the Paladin get Protection From Evil (self). Where the cleric puts up a Blade Barrier, the Paladin would get Storm Of Blades - which grants him extra attacks with knockback.
 

Well, we've got confirmation that paladins won't be alignment restricted (at least not to LG). That's a positive step.

And yet somehow they smite evil? Huh?

The restriction to lawful is interesting and makes sense. I never did buy the idea of a chaotic-evil "anti-paladin" - it was just a mindless mirror-image of the paladin.

Even evil paladins will have to be committed to some specific 'virtues', though, which intrigues me. I suppose neutral and evil paladins might be called to support Honor or Strength or even Survival of the Fittest. In that way, they would be twisted versions of the good paladins, which makes all kinds of sense.

As for smiting evil, the text does say that "their related special abilities are directly antithetical to the champions of good".

On one hand, I kind of agree. In 3e nomenclature, a paladin is rightfully a prestige class. In 5e, it probably should be considered a theme or somesuch.

On the other hand, how many classes in D&D can this be said about? What is the difference between a druid and a cleric who worships nature in some way? How are barbarian and monk not fighter variants? Why don't wizard and sorcerer both fall under "mage"? D&D has a lot of arbitrarily defined classes that I think are just too easy to use and too hard to get rid of. It's part of the game. All we can hope for is that it will be done well.

I would not at all mind seeing the fighter absorb the barbarian, possibly the ranger too. (Probably not the monk, they have way too many unique abilities.) If cleric domains are done right, I wouldn't even mind seeing the druid get absorbed, as they were in 2e - though I would have a fairly high bar for 'done right'.

The sorcerer would be a good deal harder to fold into the wizard, simply because they use very different mechanics.

In short, at this point I wouldn't mind seeing the paladin become a theme, or even an advanced theme. Maybe both. But I'll wait and see what they come up with.
 

Personally, I'm curious as to how they'll manage the Detect Evil aspect of the Paladin.

It's always been something I've been rather uncertain about, both as a player who has played many paladins and as a GM. Primarily because so often it gets used as an "evildar": See evil, smite evil, see evil, smite evil.

That's not to say I don't like it as a class feature, but I'd want to see it restricted so that it's not being used on every single person they met.

I'd rather the Paladin got an enhanced version of Sense Motive, and the "Evildar" of Detect Evil is either removed or only worked on supernatural evil/creatures with the Evil subtype, like Demons and Devils. You could then detect if, say, someone was possessed by a demon, but you'd have to use your gut to figure out that the polymorphed-dragon-disguised-as-mayor wasn't on the up-and-up.
 

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