Paladin Design Goals ... WotC Blog

Maybe, but I've seen far, far more rangers in actual play than paladins. Liking the idea of paladins, and being wililng to vote for them in an online poll, isn't the same thing as actually having one as the character you play with every week.

Anecdotes are fun!

Been gaming since '77 - I've seen 3 rangers in all those years, but over 20 paladins. And none of them were the lawful annoying that the class tends to get a bad rap for. And that 20 doesn't count the 5 or 6 I've played over the years. :D The only ranger I ever played was a 4E and that was for the two weapon fighting style, and he was actually a monk - his weapon was Martial Arts. :D Ranger was just the best mechanics to pull off what I wanted.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

We're also looking at it from a modern, 21st-century point of view. I'm not saying that Gygax's perspective is a good one, but from a real-world medieval point of view (where religion touches everything), it probably wouldn't have been considered evil.

And in this you would be incorrect. Medieval theologians were stern in denouncing this sort of thing.

It's true that they did have to denounce it - things like that did happen. But the society as a whole certainly did consider it evil.

Gygax could be very selective in his use of medieval sources. As I recall, clerics are limited to maces purely because of Bishop Turpin. (Hmm, killing people before they could backslide is also in the Song of Roland. Just how much medieval stuff did he actually read?)

Now I grant that D&D does not have to replicate a medieval setting (though that might make a very interesting campaign). Traditionally it is "medieval-ish". But calling cold-blooded murder of people who have surrendered and come over to your side 'Good' is a little over the top.
 

I'm against any and all alignment restrictions for all classes. So lawful only is progress, but I need opinions to be pushed further so that there's any alignment for that class as I don't want to wait for 7th edition before the Paladin is any alignment.

It needs to be made very clearly that just because there could be Paladins of other alignments, it doesn't invalidate LG Paladins at all.

Every force, alignment and deity should have it's own Holy Warriors. And Paladin should be the umbrella term for all of these different Holy Warriors who have a variety of abilities depending on their cause. Alignment should factor into some of the different abilities, and perhaps provide the name for a subclass in the way that certain school specialist were Wizard subclasses. Something like Cavalier for LG, Paragon for NG, Liberator for CG, Provocateur for CN, Blackguard for LE and so on.
 

I'm a firm believer that paladins should be LG, and it is only part of the restrictions layes on them to balance the fact that they are awesome mechanicly. I still fondly remember my first paladin character in 2e, I rolled the required states by pure chance and jumped on the chance to play a paladin, the class awesomeness combined with the RP restrictions made him one of the best character I ever played! untill he died holding giants at bay so the rest of the party could run away...

The way I see it it's not a question about should there be class restrictions (there should be IMO) but about how do you actually play a LG character and a one that got a rigid code on top of this. I mean, would you be against a requirement of a paladin having a minimum of Strength 12, Constitution 9, Wisdom 13 and Charisma 17? I wouldn't, I think that is party of one of the things that makes the class awesome! Not only he's a shining beacon of goodness, not only his an walking hero, he also got the states to back this up.

Warder
 

I'm a firm believer that paladins should be LG, and it is only part of the restrictions layes on them to balance the fact that they are awesome mechanicly. I still fondly remember my first paladin character in 2e, I rolled the required states by pure chance and jumped on the chance to play a paladin, the class awesomeness combined with the RP restrictions made him one of the best character I ever played! untill he died holding giants at bay so the rest of the party could run away...

The way I see it it's not a question about should there be class restrictions (there should be IMO) but about how do you actually play a LG character and a one that got a rigid code on top of this. I mean, would you be against a requirement of a paladin having a minimum of Strength 12, Constitution 9, Wisdom 13 and Charisma 17? I wouldn't, I think that is party of one of the things that makes the class awesome! Not only he's a shining beacon of goodness, not only his an walking hero, he also got the states to back this up.

Warder
Beyond alignment restrictions, I'm also quite against how 2e and previous edition Paladins were more powerful and "awesome" than other classes. It's probably how Paladins became lawful stupid in those editions, as they were appealing to players who wanted more for their power than other things. 3e and 4e did a good job of having Paladins roughly balanced with everything else. I think it should be clear that in a straight up fight between the Paladin and a Fighter, the Fighter should win most of the time.

I know this alignment thing is really divisive, but I strongly advocate Paladins for all alignments. Even if it's like one side holding up signs in protest saying: "Paladins For All", and the other side is protesting holding up signs that say: "Defend Traditional Paladins".
 

Beyond alignment restrictions, I'm also quite against how 2e and previous edition Paladins were more powerful and "awesome" than other classes. It's probably how Paladins became lawful stupid in those editions, as they were appealing to players who wanted more for their power than other things. 3e and 4e did a good job of having Paladins roughly balanced with everything else.
To this, I agree. People should not play paladin's as a way to break the game because their stupid power levels. People should want to play paladin's because the idea of upholding some kind of code and working for some greater(be it holy or unholy or neutral) cause appeals to them.

I think it should be clear that in a straight up fight between the Paladin and a Fighter, the Fighter should win most of the time.
To this however, I disagree, for several reasons.
I feel that on the whole, Paladins are divine fighters, their faith empowers them where fighter training would have otherwise taught them. The specific ways in which their faith empowers them should differ depending upon the build of your paladin. A strikery juggernaut should be on par with a strikery fighter. A defendery fighter should be on par with a defendery paladin, though they should accomplish these goals differently. A fighter may lash out with AoO, a paladin may channel divine energy to blind nearby foes. A fighter might get multiple attacks, while a Paladin would get additional damage through Smite.

I believe that saying X should always win against Y leads us down a dangerous road where we have many false choices, and only a Quadratic Wizard or a Munchinked Fighter/Cleric/Pun-Pun are viable options. I believe that all builds(such as defense, damage, healing, support, and so on) should be roughly balanced against each other.

As a long player of MMOs, I know what it's like when one class, or one spec is expressly better at X than another class or spec that is intended to do the same thing. A druid who is build to heal should be just as good at healing as a cleric, though in different ways. Perhaps in certain situations where one style of healing is superior to others(large bursts vs small heals over time), then yes, one class may come out on top. But if a fighter is build to defend and a paladin is build to defend, then their capabilities to defend should be equitable.
 

I know this alignment thing is really divisive, but I strongly advocate Paladins for all alignments. Even if it's like one side holding up signs in protest saying: "Paladins For All", and the other side is protesting holding up signs that say: "Defend Traditional Paladins".
Well, I see where you're coming from, but if someone was arguing for blurring certain other aspects, I'd be against it, too.

What I mean is that, to me, you're attempting to turn the Paladin into something I already have in a Cleric (a "holy warrior of a god"). I don't need that role or archetype filled again, since there's already a Cleric to do it.

Your "Paladins For All" and "Defend Traditional Paladins" bit is understandable, but to me it's similar to "Magic For All" and "Defend Traditional Spellcasters". I'd, again, be on the "Defend Traditional Spellcasters" over "Magic For All", just like I don't want "Paladins For All" either. Because, in my eyes, we already have a "Holy Warrior For All". And while that's a Paladin to you, it's a Cleric to me. We just have different perceptions of the role that Paladins should fill within the fiction of the game (which is causing our civil disagreement). But hey, like I said, things look like they're closer to your view than mine, so there's always that. As always, play what you like :)
 

I'm a firm believer that paladins should be LG, and it is only part of the restrictions layes on them to balance the fact that they are awesome mechanicly. I still fondly remember my first paladin character in 2e, I rolled the required states by pure chance and jumped on the chance to play a paladin, the class awesomeness combined with the RP restrictions made him one of the best character I ever played! untill he died holding giants at bay so the rest of the party could run away...

The way I see it it's not a question about should there be class restrictions (there should be IMO) but about how do you actually play a LG character and a one that got a rigid code on top of this. I mean, would you be against a requirement of a paladin having a minimum of Strength 12, Constitution 9, Wisdom 13 and Charisma 17? I wouldn't, I think that is party of one of the things that makes the class awesome! Not only he's a shining beacon of goodness, not only his an walking hero, he also got the states to back this up.

Warder

Yep, I want the 1e Paladin that has the tough alignment restrictions, gear, gold and magic item restrictions and high ability qualifications. If the resulting Paladin awesomeness overshadows the boring run of the mill fighter, so be it. And if my LG aura isn't causing the players of edgy morally gray characters to break out in hives, I'm not playing my character well enough.

One more time, if it isn't Lawful Good it isn't a Paladin.
 

Personally, I would prefer
1. a customizable class called Holy Warrior similar to that by Green Ronin. It would be used for those not following evil deities, demons or devils with two notes:
a. the Paladin gets called out as a specific type of Lawful good holy warrior and is shown s an example of building a holy warrior. It gets lay hands, etc.
b. note to players that the GM might have specific "builds" for the holy warriors of their setting and the builds are tied to the individual deity (or for a single deity). In such cases, the DM is in their right to limit the Holy Warriors in the campaign to these builds.

2. a second customizable class called Unholy Warrior class like that written by Robert Scwalb for Green Ronin to represent those serving demons, devils, and evil deities. This would be an NPC class unless the dm says otherwise.
 
Last edited:

PALADINS. FAVORITE CLASS. NUFF SAID.

in all of my rpg gaming years, including computer games, I've always used the paladin e.g. Diablo, WoW, DragonNest, Ragnarok, Pathfinder, Elder Scrolls, and of course DnD.

Here are my ideas that i want to contribute:
1. Every points from 1 - 4 is assumed as a non-evil paladin, specifically good alignments. But they should also have an equal opposite in the evil line.

2. Paladins champion a single deity, but they CAN ALSO champion a whole pantheon of deities. Lastly, they can also champion PHILOSOPHIES/IDEAS/MORALITY, instead of deities.

3. The common paladin is a heavy-armored holy warrior wielding a shield and a sword. BUT it will be very nice if in the next Advanced Player's Guide, you will present legit options for light-armored fencer paladins, or even archer paladins (I give credit to Pathfinder for the ranged paladin).

4. Paladins look better with spell-like abilities, NOT spellcasting. Leave that to the cleric. Since he is using charisma, much like a sorcerer, his holy powers must be natural/inborn, like how a sorcerer casts her spells.

5. Mounts. Make them optional.

6. Classic feel. DO NOT TAKE AWAY the following:
-lay on hands
-smite (insert alignment or creature)
-auras
-spell-like abilities
-DO NOT make it a fighter/cleric option/theme
-Resist conditions
-Detect (insert alignment or creature)
-DO NOT make it a fighter/cleric option/theme
 

Remove ads

Top