Paladin. Disappointing

[Darth Cyric]

Hmm, how about this:

Upon issuing the Divine Challenge, the Paladin must act as an aggressor in combat to maintain his mark. Acting as an aggressor includes either moving toward or attacking an enemy in melee (not necessarily the mark) within a given turn.

There. Simple, and it allows the Paladin to go out of his way to mop up nearby enemies before he closes in on his mark, but does not allow the Paladin to mark and run.

 

[fafhrd]

I wish they'd simply say that the paladin needs to be able to see his foe or the mark winks out. Yes, it means that the bad guy can go invisible or hide to get rid of it. It takes a minor action to switch it to someone else. Big deal.

If the bad guys can't strike the paladin because they lack missile weapons and he's behind the lines, that's an encounter design problem. Big monsters should be able to bull or reach their way to the paladin. This should be a big, fat non-issue.

 

[Darth Cyric]

I wish they'd simply say that the paladin needs to be able to see his foe or the mark winks out. Yes, it means that the bad guy can go invisible or hide to get rid of it. It takes a minor action to switch it to someone else. Big deal.

I disagree with this. The enemy's cowardice should NOT dispel a mark. If a Paladin's mark should vanish it's because it's his own fault for being a coward. I do NOT want a line of sight maintenance requirement.

I stand by my suggestion: the Paladin must close distance with or make a melee attack against an enemy within a given turn (not necessarily the mark). That solves the whole "mark and run" deal by forcing the Paladin to get into the thick of a fight, but doesn't restrict the Paladin's movement on the battle grid if he chases a stray enemy on the way.

 

[helium3]

or coward-paladin tactics being just one of those 4e things.

Wait. Wouldn't this align perfectly with the D&D Cartoon from the 80's?

 

[hong]

I disagree with this. The enemy's cowardice should NOT dispel a mark. If a Paladin's mark should vanish it's because it's his own fault for being a coward. I do NOT want a line of sight maintenance requirement.

One thing to remember is that paladins can now be evil; the underlying theme is that of a divine champion, not a shining exemplar of truth, justice and the Lawful Good way. I don't see anything wrong, thematically speaking, with a (good) PC rogue using cunning and stealth to elude the brutal paladin of Tiamat by slipping out from under his mark. Now whether it's a _balanced_ solution I have no idea, but that's another issue.

 

[Darth Cyric]

One thing to remember is that paladins can now be evil; the underlying theme is that of a divine champion, not a shining exemplar of truth, justice and the Lawful Good way. I don't see anything wrong, thematically speaking, with a (good) PC rogue using cunning and stealth to elude the brutal paladin of Tiamat by slipping out from under his mark. Now whether it's a _balanced_ solution I have no idea, but that's another issue.

Nah, I still don't like it. The divine should have further reach than mere line of sight, good or evil.

The ONLY issue here is preventing "mark and run." My solution would prevent this and still allow the Divine Challenge to keep its intended power and flexibility.

 

[hong]

Nah, I still don't like it. The divine should have further reach than mere line of sight, good or evil.

Most divine spells in 3E, and all those in 4E seen so far, have a LoS/LoE requirement....

 

[Hammerhead]

Nah, I still don't like it. The divine should have further reach than mere line of sight, good or evil.

The ONLY issue here is preventing "mark and run." My solution would prevent this and still allow the Divine Challenge to keep its intended power and flexibility.

The divine should have greater power than mortal flesh too. Why not just have any divine attack power kill someone automatically?

Divine powers still have to play by the same rules that everything else uses.

 

[Darth Cyric]

Most divine spells in 3E, and all those in 4E seen so far, have a LoS/LoE requirement....

They're also attack rolls. You can't target what you can't see.

And before I travel down the path of your red herring any further, I'm just going to remind you of what the issue here is: Coward Paladin. That is the problem. The ONLY problem.

 

[Darth Cyric]

The divine should have greater power than mortal flesh too. Why not just have any divine attack power kill someone automatically?

Please don't use strawman arguments. Thanks.