Paladin. Disappointing

[kigmatzomat]

Herm. Oddly enough, I'm getting less enthralled by 4e mechanics; They're starting to sound like Earthdawn d20.

Hopefully the full mechanics will differentiate themselves more. (side note: I like Earthdawn, but why would I play a d20 version when I can just play Earthdawn?)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I know we are discussing actual crunch, but to compare Lay of Hands 4e to 3e and saying 4e sucks does only take into account that this character is 1st level. We don't know that Laying of Hands might not have additional rider effects at higher levels, such as is bonus healing above that of the surge alone or even a second surge of healing the next round.

Just something to consider before making such comparisons. We are only seeing a very small portion of what characters can do and how some powers translated over.

Well, the comparison would hardly be fair, anyway - 3E 1st level Paladins don't have the ability at all.

I like Earthdawn, but why would I play a d20 version when I can just play Earthdawn?

Well, Earth Dawn mechanics, except up to modern standards?
Earth Dawn mechanics, but more D&D fluff?

If it wasn't for the cost associated with it, I'd say: Play a session of Earth Dawn, play a session of D&D 4E, and see what was more fun (taking into account the effects of the story you used and dividing that from the mechanics. Which might be hard to do.)

 

[Celtavian]

re

Thanks for posting the link to the character sheets. This seals it. I'm not upgrading.

Maybe this kind of game is good for most, I don't know. I like my DnD archetypes built off older archetypes. These new archetypes are too superhero/anime for my tastes. I know most of my players would feel the same way.

I knew I wouldn't like this game all that much with Andy Collins as lead designer. I didn't like quite a few of the changes he made to 3.5. I like these changes to 4E even less.

 

[Cobblestone]

Things I like about the Paladin:

Lay on Hands is now the pally giving up his own healing abilities to heal another--I like the sacrifice aspect.

Bolstering Strike for evil paladins. Stormbringer, anyone?

Things I don't like:

Bolstering strike for good paladins seems a little bloodthirsty. Attacks increasing vigor seems more like a barbarian rage type of thing.

Divine Challenge is way too open to abuse. What if the BBEG is a paladin (anti-paladin)? If I use the ability, I'm railroading one of my players into attacking them. If I don't, I'm nerfing the baddie.

Shielding Smite seems like something from Diablo. I hit and a shield springs into existence somewhere else. Ick.

Finally, shouldn't different gods award different powers to their champions?

C-stone

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Thanks for posting the link to the character sheets. This seals it. I'm not upgrading.

Maybe this kind of game is good for most, I don't know. I like my DnD archetypes built off older archetypes. These new archetypes are too superhero/anime for my tastes. I know most of my players would feel the same way.

I knew I wouldn't like this game all that much with Andy Collins as lead designer. I didn't like quite a few of the changes he made to 3.5. I like these changes to 4E even less.

Hmm. Not saying that your decision is wrong or trying to persuade you differently, but I am not sure if I get your archetype comment.

The Archetype of a Fighter stays the archetype of a Fighter. I don't think it matters whether he can shove an enemy around once per encounter while hitting him with his sword, or if he can just hit him. He's still doing th archetypical figher stuff.

I can see that you might feel that the power level has changed. Personally, I think that's only true if you bend on comparing the game mechanics of two different editions (3rd and 4th for example), instead of looking how the fights will feel. A 3.0 Fighter is killing goblins just as much as a 4E fighter. The 4E fighter is just using some more special abilities to achieve the same end result. None of the special abilities seem to really change how the fight would look in narration (maybe the 4E fight would look closer to a typical fight description, since it involves more distinct maneuvers due to the use of special powers). (Obviously, I like what I see. )

 

[whydirt]

I like my DnD archetypes built off older archetypes. These new archetypes are too superhero/anime for my tastes. I know most of my players would feel the same way.

What makes them too superhero/anime? Didn't classic D&D have a level title for fighters called 'Superhero'?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Divine Challenge is way too open to abuse. What if the BBEG is a paladin (anti-paladin)? If I use the ability, I'm railroading one of my players into attacking them. If I don't, I'm nerfing the baddie.

Shielding Smite seems like something from Diablo. I hit and a shield springs into existence somewhere else. Ick.

Those were two I'd really like to see surgically excised myself. Even ignore the blatant idiocy of Divine Challenge working on absolutely everything from a Gelatinous Cube to a Stone Golem, it's extremely powerful for NPCs to use, and pretty powerful to use on NPCs.

Shielding Smite is just senseless and lame. I mean, it's not even "cool". It just doesn't make any sense as a magical power even, it stinks of "ability that would only exist in a computer game" that it damages suspension of disbelief, for me. Some good flavour text could sort that out, but the text it has now? Ugh.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

What makes them too superhero/anime? Didn't classic D&D have a level title for fighters called 'Superhero'?

Obviously random titles from OD&D are immaterial to this discussion, esp. one as vague as "superhero".

What makes a lot of these things too "superhero/anime" is that we have a lot of flashy, blatant, high-magic abilities for classes which weren't "flashy" or "blatantly high magic" before.

Paladin is a key example. Your 3.XE or earlier Paladin is a holy warrior who calls on the power of his gods, but a no point does he necessarily glow, or shoot holy laserbeams from any part of his anatomy, nor does his sword glow with HOLY LIZZIGHT.

In 3.XE or earlier, you can see his powers as being subtle any like the gods helping him, by and large. In 4E, they're not just helping him, he's a superhero with a constantly glowing sword (at will), putting bizarre metagame-ish shields on people with his attacks (which doesn't even make sense supernaturally), and maybe he doesn't shoot laserbeams like the cleric, but he does make people burn with holy fire and so on. It's much more flashy, and if 3E was a fantasy novel, then 4E is a comic book.

Good/bad? Depends on perspective, but denying that there's a difference just illustrates a failure of comprehension.

 

[TerraDave]

Just to confirm: lay on hands could be used on self, to augment the one second wind. Or it could be a sacrifice for someone else (which for example the cleric cannot do).

 

[fafhrd]

Just to confirm: lay on hands could be used on self, to augment the one second wind.

Per the Paladin Smite article, you are always considered your own ally unless the ability specifically says otherwise.