Paladin. Disappointing

[Sitara]

Why are people getting so excited about the 'sacificial' element of lay on hands in 4e? lay on Hands can ALWAYS be used on party members in previous editions (adnd, 3e) and by doing so the paladin foregoes using it on himself. Thus, sacrifice. Its nothing new.

Yes the shield bothers me, but i was prepared for this silly ability from the preview.

Also, theproblem now is that in 3e smites were special. they did devastating damage, but only a limited # of times and only against evil. Now, even the fighter gets powers that do as much or even more damage than 1st level paladin smites, against anyone.
Since all levels are supposed to have similar playstyle, I don't see this changing at any level.

Lastly the paladin burning foes withholy fire doesn't bother me. I like it. But...the wyait implemented...I would rather have a power that lets him do it 1/encounter for one round,for massive damage.

 

[whydirt]

Obviously random titles from OD&D are immaterial to this discussion, esp. one as vague as "superhero".

What makes a lot of these things too "superhero/anime" is that we have a lot of flashy, blatant, high-magic abilities for classes which weren't "flashy" or "blatantly high magic" before.

Paladin is a key example. Your 3.XE or earlier Paladin is a holy warrior who calls on the power of his gods, but a no point does he necessarily glow, or shoot holy laserbeams from any part of his anatomy, nor does his sword glow with HOLY LIZZIGHT.

In 3.XE or earlier, you can see his powers as being subtle any like the gods helping him, by and large. In 4E, they're not just helping him, he's a superhero with a constantly glowing sword (at will), putting bizarre metagame-ish shields on people with his attacks (which doesn't even make sense supernaturally), and maybe he doesn't shoot laserbeams like the cleric, but he does make people burn with holy fire and so on. It's much more flashy, and if 3E was a fantasy novel, then 4E is a comic book.

Good/bad? Depends on perspective, but denying that there's a difference just illustrates a failure of comprehension.

Now you're just being hyperbolic. A glowing weapon and calling a divine shield do not a superhero make. "Spiritual Hammer" was a 2nd Level spell even back in old editions, does that make 1e Clerics and Paladins superheroes?

 

[Zaruthustran]

Those were two I'd really like to see surgically excised myself. Even ignore the blatant idiocy of Divine Challenge working on absolutely everything from a Gelatinous Cube to a Stone Golem, it's extremely powerful for NPCs to use, and pretty powerful to use on NPCs.

It sounds like the perfect assassin power. It automatically "hits", it deals big damage, and it lasts the entire encounter.

So a 1st level paladin throws on a ratty cloak and gathers amongst the crowd of peasants that has assembled to watch the King's speech about the need for a tax increase. He gets within 30 feet, and at the point during the speech when the crowd starts to grumble, he joins in and "boldly confronts" the king.

From the King's point of view, it just looks like some of the peasants yammering on about his taxes.... until he starts to burn. And he'll continue to burn--no save--until he dies, or until he manages to find and attack the one guy in the crowd who placed that mark.

Yikes!

Me, I *like* that it makes the Paladin astoundingly scary. You do NOT want to piss one off. He’ll kill you with a look. Imagine the High Inquisitor. He’s 20th level. He’s a high official of the land. He’s surrounded by guards. If he chooses to lay a Divine Challenge on you, there’s nothing you can do about it. You can’t take him out (attacking would be treason, plus he’s 20th level and has guards). You’ve just got to take it, and hope he removes it before you die.

Such a power places a tremendous responsibility upon the player. And it makes evil paladins just plain terrific villains. Yes, these guys are holy warriors, and they're as terrifying as can be.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

What makes them too superhero/anime? Didn't classic D&D have a level title for fighters called 'Superhero'?

Zing.

 

[Ipissimus]

Those were two I'd really like to see surgically excised myself. Even ignore the blatant idiocy of Divine Challenge working on absolutely everything from a Gelatinous Cube to a Stone Golem, it's extremely powerful for NPCs to use, and pretty powerful to use on NPCs.

Shielding Smite is just senseless and lame. I mean, it's not even "cool". It just doesn't make any sense as a magical power even, it stinks of "ability that would only exist in a computer game" that it damages suspension of disbelief, for me. Some good flavour text could sort that out, but the text it has now? Ugh.

Well, one, the power comes from Gods, you know. They're rather tough. Consider their job: Manipulating reality. It's good to have friends in high places.

Two, are they really any more powerful than Fireball or Lightning Bolt or a hundred and one other wizard spells?

Three, Shielding Smite lame and flavorless? Gamist? Yeah, I see your point. But then, so's a +1 longsword. An attack that wards off an enemy from your foes by hindering their movements or perhaps creating a divine barrier or maybe even manipulating chance itself is a nice buff IMO. Better than the old Bless or Prayer since it does damage at the same time.

 

[DamnedChoir]

Those were two I'd really like to see surgically excised myself. Even ignore the blatant idiocy of Divine Challenge working on absolutely everything from a Gelatinous Cube to a Stone Golem, it's extremely powerful for NPCs to use, and pretty powerful to use on NPCs.

Shielding Smite is just senseless and lame. I mean, it's not even "cool". It just doesn't make any sense as a magical power even, it stinks of "ability that would only exist in a computer game" that it damages suspension of disbelief, for me. Some good flavour text could sort that out, but the text it has now? Ugh.

I kindof feel the same way, just like the Cleric's ability to hit a foe and then get +1 AC for himself and a nearby Ally. It doesn't really make much sense, lasts for only a round, is hard to remember, and gives a tiny bonus. Maybe if it was 'hit an enemy, cleric gets +2 ac' or 'party gets +1 ac for a round' it'd make more sense but as it is it feels like the sort of thing that would only exist in a computer game and that's my biggest problem with 4E so far.

 

[fafhrd]

From the King's point of view, it just looks like some of the peasants yammering on about his taxes.... until he starts to burn. And he'll continue to burn--no save--until he dies, or until he manages to find and attack the one guy in the crowd who placed that mark.

That won't work unless the king starts flailing about with his sword.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Now you're just being hyperbolic. A glowing weapon and calling a divine shield do not a superhero make. "Spiritual Hammer" was a 2nd Level spell even back in old editions, does that make 1e Clerics and Paladins superheroes?

It would if they could use Spiritual Hammer and a number of other flash abilites at will or very frequently, yes. I'm not saying 3E didn't have superhero-ish characters (it did, later on), but Paladin wasn't one of them.

I mean jeez, there are plenty of Marvel and DC superheroes with lesser powers than that, and that's not even getting into Aquaman-land. For my money, and apparently that of others like Celtavian, the feel is into the "spandex and laserbeams" land, rather than "sharp steel and brave hearts" land.

Ipissimus - Yeah, I can buy the "Jesus is making him hit me!" angle with that power, the power itself just seems a little lame and/or OP/abuse-able. As for more powerful than lightning bolt? Yeah, I'd say so. It's usable at will, whereas it's unlikely lightning bolt or fireball will be anything other than daily.

Shielding smite just sucks. It makes sense as an ability you could use 1/encounter, y'know, get Jesus to put a shield on your buddy, but to link it to an attack? I mean what? Do you have to bet Jesus that if you'll hit the opponent, and if you're right, he has to put a shield on them? That's just silly.

 

[Thyrwyn]

. . .From the King's point of view, it just looks like some of the peasants yammering on about his taxes.... until he starts to burn. And he'll continue to burn--no save--until he dies, or until he manages to find and attack the one guy in the crowd who placed that mark.

Read the power again. The King would only take damage if he attacks someone other than the paladin. If he attacks no one, he takes no damage.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Read the power again. The King would only take damage if he attacks someone other than the paladin. If he attacks no one, he takes no damage.

I really hope 4E has a very very very clear definition of an "attack".