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D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
In the olden days, he just became a stock fighter, losing all the special paladin bonuses... and if he had an exceptional mount, bu-bye! And lost 10% XP for the session.

If he made proper atonement, he MIGHT get back the paladin abilities.

But, since you mentioned oathbreakers, I assume this is a newer edition... if he can find a suitable patron, sure, flip him to oathbreaker. Otherwise, he's a paladin with no spells, no lay-on of hands, and no ,magical mount...
"Have fun storming the castle!"
The issues with this are that since the paladin was coerced, he was unwilling. Being unwilling, in the old days the worst that would have happened would have been that the paladin would have to seek out a 7th level or higher cleric to confess to, and then do penance. In 5e, he would seek absolution from a cleric or paladin of his faith/order.
 

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pemerton

Legend
So there's no duty to a comrade in arms during a war. Every man for himself. Got it.
I didn't say that, nor imply it.

But there's no account of the morality of warfare that I'm familiar with that requires soldiers to make pointless sacrifices to try and rescue their comrades. Likewise in parallel situations (eg mountain climbing).

A parallel criminal law example: If A and B are climbing together, roped together, and the rope breaks and B falls, A is not guility of homicide for faiing to rescue B. If A and B are climbing together, and both will die and only A can save him-/herself by cutting the rope and sacrificing B, then A will be guilty of homicide. (The availability of necessity as a defence to murder/manslaughter is highly controversial.)

Of course if B cuts the rope and sacrifices him-/herself, the situation is completely different.

Also, Bucky who can't fly and isn't invulnerable, was able to take care of himself while falling to his death. Interesting take on that scene. I would have called Bucky's situation hopeless, myself, but apparently I must be wrong since it isn't that complicated.
Bucky's situation might be hopeless, or no (that word doesn't appear in the quote you posted). But Bucky is a competent adult and was not in Cap's care. (A doctor who lets a patient die on the table, or a parent who fails to rescue a child in certain circumstances, may well be guilty of manslaughter. But those are exceptions to the general proposition that there is no duty to rescue.)

Yeah, no thanks. The fact that you would phrase it as "sacrificing those in your care for your own self preservation" means that we are simply not going to agree on this. Sorry, but, no. The paladin in no way "sacrificed" someone in his care. He was given zero choice. Do this or die. Dying would accomplish nothing and would prevent the paladin form later making some sort of attempt to fix the situation - either by tithing to the widow, possibly working to resurrect the dead guy, or any number of other options.

I'm kinda burned out watching people paint this in what I see as blindingly stupid light and praising utter cowardice. Living is the hard choice. Dying is the cowards way out.
You don't have to agree. But the analysis isn't hard to understand. In (more-or-less) contemporary moral philosophy, look at (say) GEM Anscombe, or Philippa Foot and all the ensuing literature on the trolley problem. Or a lot of mainstream Kantians. In law, look at the laws of armed conflict and assoicated ideas in just war theory; or the criminal law examples I've just provided in response to Maxperson (I'm drawing on Anglo-Australian criminal law, but I don't think US criminal law differs wildly on these issues. I don't know Japanese criminal law.) In literature, look at the attitudes displayed in JRRT's work, or in mediaeval and early modern Arthurian stories.

The view that dying is the cowared's way out is essentially modernist (eg it seems to take atheism as a functional if not intellectual premise - so you could locate it in some Hellenistic ideas also like Epicrueanism, but they're the prototypes for modernist thought). It's no surprise that modernism has no room for the paladin archetype! I mean, you can do it at the table if you want to - after all, Gygaxi did, by bringing a class called "paladin" into a game whose ethics model that of Advanced Squald Leader - but it's plain as day that the resulting fiction will make no more sense from the paladin perspective than Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee - ie at best it will be an ironic commentary on the paladin as "lawful stupid" or similar. At worst it will just be an incoherent jumble.
 
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Doug McCrae

Legend
Great post, pemerton.
Gygaxi did, by bringing a class called "paladin" into a game whose ethics model that of Advanced Squald Leader
I think morality existed in 1974 OD&D. Although it's not explicit it's fairly clear from the context that Law = good, and Chaos = evil. 7th level and higher clerics must choose to be either Lawful or Chaotic. Patriarchs (8th level clerics), treants and unicorns are always Lawful. Elves and wereboars can only be Lawful or Neutral. Undead, orcs, goblins and Evil High Priests (also 8th level clerics) are always Chaotic. Some Lawful creatures will only associate with Lawful PCs. Artefacts are always Lawful or Chaotic. There's a strong Tolkien and Moorcock (but with the powerful items reinterpreted as good vs evil) influence, probably stronger than in 1e AD&D.

"Only a maiden (in the strictest sense of the term) of pure and noble heart may approach the fierce and elusive Unicorn. Unicorns may be ridden by maiden-warriors and will obey them."​

Strangely the maiden isn't specified as having to be Lawful tho.
 
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I didn't say that, nor imply it.

But there's no account of the morality of warfare that I'm familiar with that requires soldiers to make pointless sacrifices to try and rescue their comrades. Likewise in parallel situations (eg mountain climbing).

A parallel criminal law example: If A and B are climbing together, roped together, and the rope breaks and B falls, A is not guility of homicide for faiing to rescue B. If A and B are climbing together, and both will die and only A can save him-/herself by cutting the rope and sacrificing B, then A will be guilty of homicide. (The availability of necessity as a defence to murder/manslaughter is highly controversial.)

Of course if B cuts the rope and sacrifices him-/herself, the situation is completely different.

You don't have to agree. But the analysis isn't hard to understand. In (more-or-less) contemporary moral philosophy, look at (say) GEM Anscombe, or Philippa Foot and all the ensuing literature on the trolley problem. Or a lot of mainstream Kantians. In law, look at the laws of armed conflict and assoicated ideas in just war theory; or the criminal law examples I've just provided in response to Maxperson (I'm drawing on Anglo-Australian criminal law, but I don't think US criminal law differs wildly on these issues. I don't know Japanese criminal law.) In literature, look at the attitudes displayed in JRRT's work, or in mediaeval and early modern Arthurian stories.

The view that dying is the cowared's way out is essentially modernist (eg it seems to take atheism as a functional if not intellectual premise - so you could locate it in some Hellenistic ideas also like Epicrueanism, but they're the prototypes for modernist thought). It's no surprise that modernism has no room for the paladin archetype! I mean, you can do it at the table if you want to - after all, Gygaxi did, by bringing a class called "paladin" into a game whose ethics model that of Advanced Squald Leader - but it's plain as day that the resulting fiction will make no more sense from the paladin perspective than Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee - ie at best it will be an ironic commentary on the paladin as "lawful stupid" or similar. At worst it will just be an incoherent jumble.
In light of the further details we got of the situation described by OP, all I'm reading is that you're condoning, or even mandating clumsy no-win DMing. The Paladin player gave it his all and got a lucky persuasion roll, but the DM gave him a suboptimal result that was perceived as a no-win due to poor communication and the lack of hints that further negotiation was possible, so the player took the choice that wouldn't make them waste half an hour rolling a new character that they might not be attached to just because they happened to encounter a dragon-shaped falling rock.

It's as if a Paladin walks into the room and suddenly the sadist switch is flipped and the DM turns into a monster that only seeks to drive the Paladin's player insane.
 

The character sacrificed another person's life to save himself. In no morality system is that good. That's at best neutral. And it was willing. And it was a bargain with an evil creature. The character is no longer fit to be a Paladin.

I read it as a choice: The other person dies, and you live ... or you both die. Not a simple swap lives. For a lawful character it makes perfect sense to swap one person's life for two. So a lawful good character is conflicted. Thus I would not say this is a definite no-no.

If the character was chaotic good, or even neutral good, maybe it would be an issue. But a lawful good character could easily look at this as a choosing between two bad options, and deciding, as a lawful character to pick the one that means that the most good will be achieved in the future.

Another way to look at it: Suppose the paladin were not choosing for his own life, but another's: A choice between A and B dying, or just B. Would you say they were wrong for picking "only B dies"? I think that's a hard decision.

Finally, even if it is just A or B, a lawful character might decide that since A is of more value to society, A might live in preference to B. For example, it is common in war to send someone to their death. Is that intrinsically evil? Should every president we have ever had be considered evil because they sent someone else to die when they themselves were safe? Is the captain in Das Boot evil because he asks for a volunteer to drown themselves saving the ship, because he did not do it himself, even though he is necessary to saving the lives of the rest of the crew?

I'd be careful of absolutes here. As another poster said, don't make it a moral issue. Instead just look at the god they serve and ask yourself what they would think. It's basically the FRP equivalent to a standard Christian morality question -- don't consider the intrinsic morality or try and work it out from ethical principles, just go with "What Would Jesus Do?". So ... what would Pelor do?
 

One thing to be careful about is that Paladins are not the exemplars of goodness. Because they serve both good and the law, they are always in conflict. If they are faced with choosing between evil and chaos, there is no strong reason why they wouldn't decide to do the evil lawful thing rather than the chaotic good thing.

Your Neutral Good priest is not so conflicted. Trust her ahead of paladins.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I read it as a choice: The other person dies, and you live ... or you both die.

I don't know why I've been brought into this 20 pages on. I've already said pretty much all I wanted to say, and anything I'd say would be just repeating myself.

But, to repeat myself, suppose a known serial murder/rapist grabs a kid on a playground, and a cop is standing nearby and the serial killer has the drop on him. He's got no chance to draw his gun and resist without taking a bullet. And the serial murder/rapist says, "Let me have the kid, and I'll let you live."

And the cop says, "What choice do I have, take the kid."

While we might not charge the cop with murder, we'd probably give him some deserved stink eye for doing nothing. Whereas, if the cop tried to stop it, said, "Over my dead body you will.", and was shot and killed, even if he didn't save the child, we'd think of that cop as a hero.

Well, this guy that stepped aside for the dragon, he's not a hero.
 

aramis erak

Legend
The issues with this are that since the paladin was coerced, he was unwilling. Being unwilling, in the old days the worst that would have happened would have been that the paladin would have to seek out a 7th level or higher cleric to confess to, and then do penance. In 5e, he would seek absolution from a cleric or paladin of his faith/order.
And until he did, or if he was non-repentant, he'd never get back the lost powers. (And until he formally gives up, or has an alignment change, he retains the limits without the benefits)

Choosing to perform an evil act, coerced or not, costs (under AD&D) the alignment breach XP penalty. And under AD&D 1, if it resulted in an alignment change, which it could, depending upon which rulebooks were in force and haw many deals he's made with the enemy, makes that 3 levels of XP penalty.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
One thing to be careful about is that Paladins are not the exemplars of goodness. Because they serve both good and the law, they are always in conflict. If they are faced with choosing between evil and chaos, there is no strong reason why they wouldn't decide to do the evil lawful thing rather than the chaotic good thing.

Your Neutral Good priest is not so conflicted. Trust her ahead of paladins.

Quick aside:

5e has changed this up, paladins aren't necessarily (or even usually) lawful good - depends on oath.

In this case, the paladin was an oath of ancients paladin - they do serve good above all:

This oath emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos.
 

Oofta

Legend
I don't know why I've been brought into this 20 pages on. I've already said pretty much all I wanted to say, and anything I'd say would be just repeating myself.

But, to repeat myself, suppose a known serial murder/rapist grabs a kid on a playground, and a cop is standing nearby and the serial killer has the drop on him. He's got no chance to draw his gun and resist without taking a bullet. And the serial murder/rapist says, "Let me have the kid, and I'll let you live."

And the cop says, "What choice do I have, take the kid."

While we might not charge the cop with murder, we'd probably give him some deserved stink eye for doing nothing. Whereas, if the cop tried to stop it, said, "Over my dead body you will.", and was shot and killed, even if he didn't save the child, we'd think of that cop as a hero.

Well, this guy that stepped aside for the dragon, he's not a hero.

So the cop should commit suicide? Knowing that not only is he dead, but the kid is going to die anyway? Instead of calling in for backup the moment the guy is gone, following the perp and getting a license plate number and putting out a warrant for his arrest? What about the cop's family, his kids who will now grow up without a father? Do they not matter?

Basically every paladin must be lawful stupid. Ignore the direction under "breaking your oath" in the PHB where they acknowledge that no one can be perfect all the time, that sometimes there is no good choice.

Glad your not my DM.
 

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