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D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

pemerton

Legend
On the mountain-climbing example, obviously opinions differ. Utilitarians say "cut the rope". Other moral persspecives may disagree - and it may depend on other contexts, like what promises we made to one another (eg did we agree to allow rope-cutting in such circumstnaces?), what caused you to be unconscious (is it your own fault? - in which case that my vitiate or at least reduce the stringency of duties owed by me to you), why the piton is coming loose, etc.

In the OP scenario as I understand it the threat arises from a dragon. It's a sentient being. So on most theories of morality of duty, it makes a big difference whether I kill you, or it kills you. One of the key differences between such moralities and utilitarianism is that the latter does not care about the particularities of agency, but the former do. Adding in an ethics of honour makes the parituclarity of agency even more accute.

A particularly important consideration when we add a paladin - at least as traditionally conceived - into the mix is the importance of hope. To cut the rope is to abandon hope. To treat the dragon's victory as inevitable is to abandon hope. This is the great theme of LotR, unsurprising given the theological underpinnings of JRRT's writings.

A paladin who abandons hope has not only turned his/her back on divine providence, but has - hubristically - elevated his/her own assessment of the situation above that of the divinity to whom s/he should be submitting. S/he is supposing that providence has ceased to play out in the situation. So closely allied to the wrong of abandoing hope is the wrong of prideful judgement. (Another recurring theme in LotR and the Silmarillion.)

How a RPG handles the place of hope and providence is a matter of mechanical design, GM framing, and GM adjudication. Obviously having the paladin and friend be spirited away by divine intervention would be a fairly clunky way in most contexts; but its not the only possibility - there are any number of reasons why the confrontation between paladin and dragon need not result in a dead paladin. And many of these are quite compatible with the outcome being a "story loss" for the player of the paladin, if that's what the proper resolution of the situation requires.

And of course sometimes what is required is that the paladin die. Though I'm very sentimental as a GM (aw was JRRT as an author!) I can acknowledge that sometimes that's the outcome that duty and honour require. How this is to be sorted out in a RPG - eg under what condidtions it's fair for a PC to die, and how (if at all) a "death flag" is to be raised, etc - is a matter partly of system and partly of table understandings.

Now if a GM is running a game in which. from the outset, hope is futile or naive (see eg most approaches to CoC), or is running a game in which the only proper source of hope is an individual's capacity and prowess (see eg REH's Conan), then therre is already no room for the paladin archetype. In the CoC-type game the whole idea of heorism becomes redundant. In the Conan-esque game the arhcetype of the paladin has been supplanted by REH's rule-transcending, self-realising, rather Nietzschean barbarian.

To me it seems that a good chunk of paladin threads arise from games that are essentially Conan-esque in their moral, ethical and theological orientation and yet players are being invited to play paladins sincerely rahter than ironically. It seems obvious that that's a recipe for a poor play experience!
 

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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
For a Paladin or Cleric to be worthy of the name I think sincere belief needs to be a corner stone part of the character. These are people who have devoted their life to something. A paladin does not just observe a code. Their code is their solace, their source of comfort in this world. They believe in it with all their heart and soul. They would gladly die for it.

Not going to excuse the scenario design. It's hard to tell without knowing more. If it was designed to put the paladin into a double bind I am not a fan. However, if a I was running a game in which the player of a paladin was acting expediently or trying to talk about how technically they weren't violating the code I would have a discussion with them to see if they really want to play a paladin. That sort of legal wrangling I expect and value from someone playing a warlock, Clerics and Paladins should not act like Warlocks.
 

Hussar

Legend
snippage of a lot of dead pixels and shame on you for godwinning the thread yet again by invoking Tolkien. :)

IOW, I, as the player, should assume that the DM will not kill my character (as the DM is the source of divine providence) and should meta-game accordingly?

No thanks. And, as a DM, I would kill your character every single time. I certainly would not expect the DM to deus ex machina my survival and in fact would strongly resent such an intrusion.

Now, you can frame that however you like, but, sorry, no, blinding stupidity is not something I ever reward in my games. That police officer in @Celebrim's example isn't a hero, but a reckless idiot who put his own personal honor ahead of any possibility of saving the child. The paladin had only two choices - die with the NPC or not. There was no sense that the NPC was going to survive any of this.

And, if we say that it's ok, so long as the paladin fought back, then, well, all we're doing is arguing over price.

Say the paladin fights back. Dragon breathes on the both of them, instantly killing the NPC and hurting the paladin. The dragon than grabs the body, and leaves. Is honor now satisfied? NPC is still dead. Exactly how much damage does the paladin need to suffer before honor is satisfied? Say the dragon just grabs the body and leaves. Oh, I guess that's ok, since the paladin didn't "give" him the body. Just totally failed to protect the NPC. But, he didn't "give" the NPC away, so, it's okay.

And, as far as "hope" goes, please, Pemerton, RTFM. This is 5e. This is NOT how paladins were in other editions. The oaths of different paladins are DIFFERENT. There is no one size fits all answer here.
 

pemerton

Legend
For a Paladin or Cleric to be worthy of the name I think sincere belief needs to be a corner stone part of the character. These are people who have devoted their life to something. A paladin does not just observe a code. Their code is their solace, their source of comfort in this world. They believe in it with all their heart and soul. They would gladly die for it.

Not going to excuse the scenario design. It's hard to tell without knowing more. If it was designed to put the paladin into a double bind I am not a fan. However, if a I was running a game in which the player of a paladin was acting expediently or trying to talk about how technically they weren't violating the code I would have a discussion with them to see if they really want to play a paladin. That sort of legal wrangling I expect and value from someone playing a warlock, Clerics and Paladins should not act like Warlocks.
Good post!

The flipside of player's playing these sorts of PCs with sincerity rather than expedience is that the GM has to make sure that such sincerity is not - from the "meta" perspective - naive or foolish or pointless or self-defeating. Which connects to the double bind issue but goes further - without putting the paladin into impossible binds the GM might still frame and adjudicate things such that the paladin always or mostly "loses" because s/he acts with sincere devotion.

How to avoid that without also avoiding sentimentality can be tricky, but that's exactly why and where - in a RPG context - we should be looking to the resolution mechanics to help with some of the heavy lifting. In the context of the OP"s scenario, it could be as simple as that a successful Persuasion check keeps the dragon talking long enough that rescuers have time to arrive, or something else comes up that needs the dragon's attention and so it doesn't have the time to finish off its confrontation with the palaind ("But next time we meet it will be a different story . . ."). And that's just what I came up with with a couple of minutes thought and not actually being there at the table.
 

Hussar

Legend
For a Paladin or Cleric to be worthy of the name I think sincere belief needs to be a corner stone part of the character. These are people who have devoted their life to something. A paladin does not just observe a code. Their code is their solace, their source of comfort in this world. They believe in it with all their heart and soul. They would gladly die for it.

Not going to excuse the scenario design. It's hard to tell without knowing more. If it was designed to put the paladin into a double bind I am not a fan. However, if a I was running a game in which the player of a paladin was acting expediently or trying to talk about how technically they weren't violating the code I would have a discussion with them to see if they really want to play a paladin. That sort of legal wrangling I expect and value from someone playing a warlock, Clerics and Paladins should not act like Warlocks.

Sigh.

There is nothing "technical" here at all. THE PALADIN DID NOT WILLINGLY COMMIT AN EVIL ACT. Full stop. End of story. At worst, the paladin player should be doing some in game atonement, finding a widow, maybe paying for a funeral, something like that.

At no point here has the paladin WILLINGLY commited an act that violates his code.

To me, it's arguments like this, and @pemerton and @Celebrim that make playing paladins such an incredible drag on the game and the main reason why everyone hates paladins. So many DM's see paladins as a giant neon sign saying, "Hey, here's a big juicy button! Push it and screw over the player and you don't even have to appologize because it's all part of the game!"

Blech.
 

Hussar

Legend
Y'know, it's kinda funny in a way. Lots of people here have objected to the scenario because it's a no-win scenario. That part doesn't actually bother me. I wouldn't mind if I was the paladin player and the DM put me in this situation. It's got lots of potential and it could lead to all sorts of interesting character development.

My problem is that there are a number of DM's here who have decided that there is one, and only one, right answer and if I don't guess that right answer, I'm failing as a paladin and that it's somehow the DM's duty to punish me for failing to live up to their interpretation of my character. That there is some sort of magic "right answer" in the scenario. That's what flies up my nose.

There is no "right" answer. There are just answers. And what the paladin player chooses to do after the situation is far, far more interesting to me than what he does in the moment. Does he choose to sacrifice his character? Ok, fair enough. Does he choose to live and then deal with the consequences? Much more interesting to me.

But, having the DM tell me, after my choice is made, "You have chosen...poorly. Welcome to being a fighter" would be such a crock. It's such a waste of a fantastic opportunity and all it does is piss off the player for absolutely no gain.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Sigh.

There is nothing "technical" here at all. THE PALADIN DID NOT WILLINGLY COMMIT AN EVIL ACT. Full stop. End of story. At worst, the paladin player should be doing some in game atonement, finding a widow, maybe paying for a funeral, something like that.

At no point here has the paladin WILLINGLY commited an act that violates his code.

To me, it's arguments like this, and @pemerton and @Celebrim that make playing paladins such an incredible drag on the game and the main reason why everyone hates paladins. So many DM's see paladins as a giant neon sign saying, "Hey, here's a big juicy button! Push it and screw over the player and you don't even have to appologize because it's all part of the game!"

Blech.
Following up on this, within the context of setting the hurdle for the paladin, really this boils over much beyond that.

To quote a player from one of my many HERO games "I want points for that other PC disads, because every time it "hits him" it screws me!!"

The more the GM makes the paladin a challenger onerous to play for its player, that spreads multiple times over for the rest of the party as long as they dont want to kick them out.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Following up on this, within the context of setting the hurdle for the paladin, really this boils over much beyond that.

To quote a player from one of my many HERO games "I want points for that other PC disads, because every time it "hits him" it screws me!!"

The more the GM makes the paladin a challenger onerous to play for its player, that spreads multiple times over for the rest of the party as long as they dont want to kick them out.

I feel this outlook is based on the idea that any character who values something other than completing the scenario is a detriment to play. What if instead we were fans of all the characters and got enjoyment out of seeing their personal stories play out?
 

Hussar

Legend
I feel this outlook is based on the idea that any character who values something other than completing the scenario is a detriment to play. What if instead we were fans of all the characters and got enjoyment out of seeing their personal stories play out?

And that's perfectly fair, and honestly, I agree with that. However, I'm not getting to see my personal story play out. I'm getting to see the DM's interpretation of my character play out.

THAT'S where the primary problem lies.

As I've said multiple times now, the best solution here would be to ask the player if the player thinks he needs to atone, and, if yes, work with the player to create an interesting story.

Telling me, no, sorry, you're wrong about your character, will never, ever go well.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
In general I am a fan of what Apocalypse World calls "Explain the consequences and ask". I think for something so important the player should know what the impact of their decision will be. I also think stripping away all your abilities is generally not a very interesting consequence.
 

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