D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

[Celebrim]

In all editions of D&D, there have been different levels of punishment for paladin misbehavior. "Fallen paladin" is the ultimate punishment. Applying it in this situation is like imposing the death penalty for jaywalking.

The situation here is that the Paladin has knowingly and willfully behaved in a manner that is dishonorable. I realize that the situation in 5e is slightly more ambiguous only because the 'Oath' mechanism means that not all Paladin's see their honor held in the same way, and in fact a Blackguard is just a Paladin with a different 'Oath'. But for the majority of Oaths, this is still a willful violation of their oath and honor because it's cowardly, fails to protect the helpless, makes a bargain with an evil being, etc. For the majority of Oaths, this is willful violation of an Oath.

And for most of D&D history, loss of Paladin status was the standard for violation of honorable conduct. The only real difference is over how easy it is to get it back. If the conduct was not willing or knowing, such as the Paladin violated his Oath through ignorance or magical compulsion, then you could 'Atone' and get it back.

Now, as for the specific act, it's mostly (but not entirely) an act of passivity, which as I judge alignment is a (mostly) 'Neutral' act. That is, this would have been fully in character for a Neutral character, and as such wouldn't cause me to suggest possible alignment drift by the character. (If the Paladin suggested the bargain, that would have been unambiguously 'Evil'.) However, even if it isn't an 'Evil' act, it's still an act of indifference to the suffering of others that led to the unopposed death of a helpless character. And it's an act of cowardice. From the perspective of a pure good being, such as the sort that ordain and empower Paladins, everything that falls short of the ideals of Good is unholy. The Paladin's purity has been lost, and it will be very difficult to regain it.

At minimum, as I see it, this is loss of Paladin status and a very long road to regaining it. This is Lancelot has betrayed his Lord and friend level stuff, time to become an acetic monk and spend years paying penance stuff.

And while I might not necessarily run a scenario like this, this is high narrativism: "What does your character really believe?" stuff. Clearly, the Paladin was tested in Love, Faith, Hope, and Courage and failed pretty utterly. You do not get to represent yourself as a champion of good anymore.

 

[Umbran]

I didn't tell you how to play your character - you already did that.

If a player has their character do evil things then they write "evil" on the character sheet.

In 5e, "evil" does not have any meaning. It has no mechanical impact. For the Paladin in 5e, the question is the Oath

 

[BookBarbarian]

I can just picture it: "NO! You can't have him! I'm saving him in case I get hungry later..."

Ha! Probably.

Another anecdote: My party once encountered some townsfolk that had been captured by goblins. The goblin chief was feeding them one at a time to a group of giant rats. So we fought the goblins. The last goblin threw down his weapon an surrendered, then my Barbarian killed him with a Javelin throw.

My party was surprised that I would kill an unarmed goblin. I told them that while killing people for their meat was something he would understand, perhaps not agree with but understand, but killing people (or anything) for sport was mindbogglingly evil to him.

 

[Wiseblood]

In 5e, "evil" does not have any meaning. It has no mechanical impact. For the Paladin in 5e, the question is the Oath

Of course you’re right. Evil does not have meaning in 5e but only because of moral relativism. (Which I disagree with strongly.)

 

[Blue]

He didn't tell you how to play your character. He's telling you how you have played your character.

No, he's not even doing that. At the absolute best, he's telling me how he perceived my character commit one action. If a mother kills something threatening their child, some could see the mother as evil, others not. Saving one's own life under duress is not necessarily evil.

Even it if is, that's one action, regardless of anything else how the character had been played. Considering that the ogininally posting DM had different expectations of what his first blush of how the paladin would respond, we can pretty well assume that the character had not been played evil.

Alignment in 5e is solely an RP tool - there is no mechanical connection, no way to detect it, nothing it interacts with within the rules. It does not affect reputation, give an "alignment language" (for us Grognards about), or have anything to do with how people in the world see you. It's listed in the personality and background section of the PHB - it's an RP tool.

So let me correct my statement. At best, the DM has decided to take one action under duress that likely does not match with how the character is generally played, deciding how they perceive it is the only possible interpretation, and then act on that to change an roleplaying-only guide on my character sheet. Since it has no affect except RP within the rules, there really is no assumption besides he expects it to affect my RP unless you want to posit that it's just a power trip that is not supposed to have any meaning whatsoever.

 

[Maestrino]

... for 5e I don't even write an alignment on my character sheet. Because in 5e "alignment" is only a broad reminder for the player as to how they designed their character's personality. It has no in-game effects (aside from "detect good/evil").

So, about the paladin in this case, look at it by Oath.

Oath of Conquest: "Strength Above All. You shall rule until a stronger one arises." Dragon is pretty beefy. Conquest pally is OK letting the dragon be the alpha.

Oath of Devotion: "Protect the weak. Protect those entrusted to your care." The Devotion paladin done f***ed up. They need some major atonement.

Oath of Redemption: "Violence is a weapon of last resort." This paladin is now on a quest to redeem the soul of the dragon, and will only kill it if it proves irredeemable.

Oath of the Ancients: "Stand against the wickedness that would swallow [the light in the world]." Not great here, but if the paladin is legit on a mission to save the entire freakin' world, he may have bigger fish to fry than this dragon.

Oath of the Crown: "Courage in the face of overwhelming odds." This paladin also done f***ed up.

Oath of Vengeance: "By Any Means Necessary." This paladin doesn't even have a twinge of guilt.


So, out of six possible oaths, two have serious problems with the actions taken. One is borderline. The other three are no problem.

 

[Umbran]

Evil does not have meaning in 5e but only because of moral relativism.

No. It has no meaning because they didn't write the rules that way.

I suspect they didn't write the rules that way, because the alignment system and its variations of the years just didn't work very well. Even if you believe in moral absolutism, or want it in your game, stating it so that the players can make informed decisions takes... an entire textbook on moral philosophy to do. And they are playing D&D, not The Good Place RPG.

 

[FrogReaver]

Can we all at least agree that under the traditional definition of good that this paladin was not good in response to this trial?

Traditionally good is that the ends don’t justify the means. the means should be good and the ends as well.

 

[Oofta]

Can we all at least agree that under the traditional definition of good that this paladin was not good?

Traditionally good is that the ends don’t justify the means. By the means should be good and the ends as well.

People on the internet agreeing? Probably not.

I would say that this was not a good act, it was an act forced upon the PC who was given no choice. It was a Trolley Car dilemma. I don't think there was a "good" option.

In any case, a different question is what level of act (or lack of action) does it take to violate an oath, an alignment or "honor". That's going to vary.

 

[Tony Vargas]

D&D, not The Good Place RPG.

Ooooh… campaign idea!