D&D 5E Paladin oath. What constitutes willingly breaking your oath/code?

[Son of the Serpent]

Martyrdom is not necessarily X/S alinged @Maxperson

Was paracelsus stupid? Hmmmmmmm

He knew he stood a good chance of being lynched for the thorn in the side of the intelligensia that he decided to be. And yet he committed one of the largest single title book burnings ever as a supreme act of defense for free speech. Also no. I didnt get any of that backward just now. Yes i know it bucks the trend of the idea of free speech. Read about him. Itll make sense. Also say hi to the father of gnomes for me while you're at it. Also they didnt kill him. But he died pennyless. And still a genius.

 

[Maxperson]

Because things often get complicated when you are being realistic.

"Willing" can happen even at gun point. Or not.

Willing can never happen at gun point. To be willing a person has to want to engage in the action or at the very least be okay with it. Someone being forced at gun point isn't either of those things.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Maybe it's best to call that philosophically willing - that is for the choice presented to me was I the one in charge of making that choice.

Then let's contrast that with what I'll call legally willing - that is for the choice presented to me was there some outside influence upon my decision such that my decision would have been different without that outside influence.

Ya'll are just talking past each other by using the different definitions of willing - which is understandable given the source text that gets brought up that uses willing doesn't define which way it meant willing either.

I mean...in a world like that where such worse things than death exist i think it takes away deaths sting a bit even if there is no guarantee of afterlife. Especially for those who are devoutly committed to values and principles as in d&d those things and acts and personal sacrifice to them make a cosmic difference which adds a bit of objective long standing effect to the universe after ones gone therefore creating a sort of possibility for objectively glorious death. Not just philosophic. Viscerally real.

 

[Maxperson]

Maybe it's best to call that philosophically willing - that is for the choice presented to me was I the one in charge of making that choice.

So that's just it. The paladin is not in charge of making the choice. He's making a choice, but that choice is being forced upon him. At no point is he willingly making either the decision to suicide, or the decision to hand over NPC.

Then let's contrast that with what I'll call legally willing - that is for the choice presented to me was there some extraordinary outside influence upon my decision such that my decision would have been different without that outside influence.

"Legal" has nothing to do with my argument.

 

[FrogReaver]

So that's just it. The paladin is not in charge of making the choice. He's making a choice, but that choice is being forced upon him. At no point is he willingly making either the decision to suicide, or the decision to hand over NPC.

Whether a gun is held at your head or not you have the volition to make the choice to comply or not.

 

[FrogReaver]

The choice to comply or not comply is a willing choice

However, whatever action you are taking in compliance with the gunman's demands is not willing.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I am disappointed that no one seems to wonder who the heck Paracelsus is. If ever there was a person who played X/stupid alignment in a way that made sense, worked well, and fit a genius, it was Sheogorath playing Paracelsus the befuddled wizard and alchemist IRL. Father of gnomes. Father of toxicology and several other major branches of science. Chaser of beautiful elements known as undine salamanders sylphs. Jokester of horse uterine homunculi formulae. Theorist on the nature of and arbiter of the free aquisition of credibility.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

The choice to comply or not comply is a willing choice

However, whatever action you are taking in compliance with the gunman's demands is not willing.

Nope. The paladin could attempt to resist him. Failure to attempt is where will comes in.

 

[Maxperson]

Whether a gun is held at your head or not you have the volition to make the choice to comply or not.

Volition does not equal willing, though. Will(choice) does not mean that you are willing(okay with it).

 

[FrogReaver]

Nope. The paladin could attempt to resist him. Failure to attempt is where will comes in.

As I said. The choice to comply or not comply is a willful choice.

After making that choice to comply - your actual actions done in compliance are not willful actions.

You must separate choices from actions. Willing choices and non willing actions.