Paladin on Mount + Imp. Evasion

[Hypersmurf]

Not agreed, it stats the rider and mount share saves.

The "Share Saves" ability allows the mount to calculate the saving throw bonuses he writes on his character sheet by using the paladin's base saving throw figures instead of his own base saving throw figures if he wishes.

That's what it does. That's all it does. The only time the "Share Saves" ability is ever checked is when the paladin goes up a level. While you're calculating new skill points, feats, etc, you also say "Now, is the moutns base Will save or the paladin's base Will save better now? Which is the better Fort save? Reflex?"

That's the only time Share Saves matters. Once you've made that calculation, you can forget about Share Saves until next level.

During the fireball, Share Saves has no effect on the outcome - it's already been figured into the mount's Reflex bonus. It certainly doesn't let the paladin use the result of the mount's roll.

Some times I think (MO)people see rules in a diffrent way then most. if a fireball covers an area with heat fire blast, to avoid the effects of this you must leave the threatened area.

No, you can't leave the threatened area. It isn't your turn. You make your Reflex save by dodging within your own square.

If the Mount saves, it has leaped out of the threatened area, to avoid damage, if he fails, he made it to the far sides of the threatened area, and thus takes half damage.

No. If the mount saves, it takes no damage, and remains in the same square. If the mount fails, it takes half damage, and remains in the same square. That's how Reflex saves work.

These extraordinary abilities allow the target of an area attack to leap or twist out of the way.

Yes. But the leaping or twisting takes place in your own square.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.

Right. If you're wedged in a small tunnel, you do not have room to move.

If you are in a 5'x5' square, you have room to move within that square. You don't need to move out of your square; you just need to be able to move within your square.

When you're squeezing, you take a -4 penalty to AC. When you're squeezing through a very small space, you take the -4 penalty and also lose your Dex bonus.

A mounted character takes no penalty to AC, so he is not restricted in his movement. He has 'room to move' within his space.

Dodge bonus only applies to designated opponent. Dodge is a Personal feat, not save.

I don't mean just the Dodge feat. I mean any effect that gives a Dodge bonus. Fighting defensively. Combat Expertise. Racial dodge bonuses. Etc.

I agree, however mounted it stats they share saves.

The mount Shares Saves with the paladin whether he's mounted or not. That has nothing to do with evasion. Just what number is written in the Saving Throw box of his stat block.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

I have gamed sence 1981, and been gm sence 1989. The core croup I play with is still together. We game every weekend, and have fun. We have played threw all the eddition, and now play 3.5. We all love the game, as a hobby. We understand that the rules are mechanics, for the real game of role-playing. No mater how you look at it, its a RPG, and the rules are mechanics.

Most all I stated above are RAW, from the SRD. I did not do anything to the rules but try and show they way we use them. I still believe this is the way they were intended to be Perceived by those who wrote them....

I have to excuse WizDrag, I was teasing you a little bit

Possibly you'd be surprised to hear how many guys gamed that way since more than 20 years, but that's not the point. I'm happy to hear that you have a nice running group of gamers for such a long time, that's not so common.

You quoted the rules as written, but your interpretation are houserules. Possibly good houserules that work for you, but they are crossing the very fine border which may cause problems with the other rules (e.g. how do you get away somewhere with evasion when it's not your turn? See Hyps post above). Not in your case and I'm happy to hear it. But I've seen game groups break up because of such discussions (guess you know the story, the DM rules like this in one situation and with the same ruling there would suddenly be problems in other situations or the players try to take advantage of this ruling... ).

Anyway. Hope this post didn't annoy you.

 

[The Souljourner]

Sorry WizDrag, but your interpretation of the Share Saves ability is totally unsupported by the rules as written. No where in there does it say anything about the paladin getting to use the effects of the mount's saving throw rolls. Not one little bit.

As for moving with reflex saves - that too is not supported by the rules. You can only move on your own turn, and you almost always make reflex saves when it's not your turn. Yes, I know, it seems odd that a rogue can stay in a 5' x 5' square in the middle of a ball of fire and not get burnt, but it's supposed to be a fantasy game (after all, the ball of fire was from a magical spell...). There's no real explanation of how reflex saves work, but you just kind of have to put yourself in the fantasy mindset.

-The Souljourner

 

[Plane Sailing]

Yes, I know, it seems odd that a rogue can stay in a 5' x 5' square in the middle of a ball of fire and not get burnt, but it's supposed to be a fantasy game (after all, the ball of fire was from a magical spell...). There's no real explanation of how reflex saves work, but you just kind of have to put yourself in the fantasy mindset.

Don't even have to do that... I think of anaprop - planes can sometimes avoid radar because radar coverage isn't perfect, there are gaps that appear in its propagation. It isn't perfectly uniform.

I like to assume that within the house-sized ball of fire the heat is not uniformly distributed. Saving throws reduce your exposure to the fire (duck & cover) and evasion meant that someone was lucky/clever/quick enough to get into one or more of the zones where the spread of the fireball wouldn't hurt them.

Cheers

 

[WizDrag]

I have to excuse WizDrag, I was teasing you a little bit

Possibly you'd be surprised to hear how many guys gamed that way since more than 20 years, but that's not the point. I'm happy to hear that you have a nice running group of gamers for such a long time, that's not so common.

Thank you!

We do use a diffrent movement system, and I can see where I might have been looking at the rules diffrent than you do. I just think that combat is not turn based, it is happing all at once. 3.5 feels like a trun based CRPG to me, such as Hero's Might & Magic. We also use a 10 second round, with 10-segments, one for each number in a d10. Initiative is rerolled every round, and we do not use the likes of inproved initiative and such. Spells go by segments as well. So I guess you coud say it was my bad, as I was looking at it with ruleset we use for movement.


It would take all night to try and explain our Time & Movement system by post, so I will leave that to one day in Houserules. Besides you need to see it in work to fully understand it.

Sorry for all the ranting.

(e.g. how do you get away somewhere with evasion when it's not your turn? See Hyps post above).

We look at as you are not just standing there, waiting for your turn, you are constantly moving. Maybe not from square to square, but moving, if you need to evade, from the likes of a fireball. You made need to move from the threatened area. So we feel realistically when you evade, you jump, leep, duck from the area. This requires you character (Figure) to move to the edge of the treatened area. If its not you turn, then you may loose your turn that round if you cannot get back to where you were with the time you have left in that round. I know this is strange and can suck for the PC, but thats better than not trying to evade, and taking the damage.

We role-play, so I don;t have to worry about players, getting madd over mayby loosing an attack or swing, or action, as a resault of the evade. They understand that any normal person would try and evade when they could, to keep from taking damage. I have yet to see any of my players say, I should have just stood there I have like 90 hp, and the blast only did like 34. They don't play that way, they think like the character they are playing would. They are great role-players. They are not scared to do what needs to be done either, even if they think it will kill their character. If they feel thats what there character would do they do it, regardless of what they know what might happen. I guess we play more realisticlly than some. Its hard to explain.

One guy has a +2 weapon, and will not use it, instead he uses the basic sword given to him during training as a knight. He says "My character knows that magic weapons are better, but I just like this old one more" He says " It just feels right in my hand." He tells me that his character thinks of the sword as a friend, that it has saved his life to many time to put down for what some say is better because its magical. Beleive me this makes if difficult as a dm who uses some monsters that has a DR/10 or so.

So I guess what I am saying is I uderstand where you and the others are coming from, when you say...How can you move when its not your turn. The answer is we use a diffrent style of movement for combat.

 

[Darklone]

In such cases (houserules), I stole together some ideas and made some customized feats for such a player. Essentially something like a bonded weapon, his weapon gains additional abilities and other stuff...

Some of these feats are bonuses to disarm, AoOs or other stuff, others are bonuses to damage or simply new abilities though I try to stay away from the typical magical special abilities (which bonded weapons or the Kensai class grant). That way a player can have his own unique weapon without having to carry his own golfbag of various +5 swords. I do had similar stuff for a sorcerer who only used fire spells to keep him on par with the game (e.g. a feat that increased his DC, as well as a feat chain that allowed him to hurt fire creatures as if they had resistance 30 or lowered the resistance of other creatures).

 

[Hypersmurf]

It would take all night to try and explain our Time & Movement system by post, so I will leave that to one day in Houserules.

Ah! I'd be much happier to entertain a discussion of Paladins-sharing-mount's-evasion and leaving-squares-on-Reflex-Saves in House Rules

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Ah! I'd be much happier to entertain a discussion of Paladins-sharing-mount's-evasion and leaving-squares-on-Reflex-Saves in House Rules

No way. I wanna see the paladins face when I tell him that his mount stopped and ducked behind him in that Cone of Cold.