Paladin Question

[Seeten]

Oh, and one other thing.

I *would* do that.

 

[Seeten]

Which gets me to thinking. If I were a Paladin in Kieperrs world, I'd go passive aggressive about it, too. In a fun way.

In the second room in the dungeon, an orc surrenders. I would immediately accept the surrender, and order my companions to follow me back to town, where the orc must stand trial. Not leave again until the orc has stood trial, escaped, or whatever, then go back to room two. If we get to room three, and another orc surrenders, off we go, back to town. I would have a ball with it.

 

[Rystil Arden]

As a player who generally picks LE, I'd LOVE to be let loose in the world of this BoED Exalted alignment. As a wizard(necromancer)/Pale Master, I could cry foul, pout a bit and surrender, and teleport without error 5 minutes later every single time I am found.

Wow, would that ever be fun. And I could laugh at the complete idiot fool Paladins, while I kill his family and animate them, make his wife a ghoul, make his children into zombies, and then face him, and say, "Oops, I am sorry Sir, I surrender!" and 5 minutes later, teleport without error again, with a contingency to leave laughter in the air for hours later. Oh, and for his loved ones to attack him.

Presumably the Paladin is well within his rights to knock you out from nonlethal damage after you surrendered, burn your spellbook, sell all your magic items and give the resulting money to the poor, and hire a Spellthief to whack you with a sap until all your prepared spells are gone.

 

[Seeten]

Oh, no, Rystil, I am immune to non-lethal damage. Pale Master 10. No need to worry about Spellthieves, I have an ARMY of followers, including a Lich Necromancer and a Cleric/Master of Shrouds who can take care of lame d6 HD bad thieves.

Please. The Paladin is woefully outclassed to begin with. But even more fun for him to have to accept my surrender and stop fighting every single time.

Also, even better, he MUST offer me mercy, or he LOSES his powers, in Kieperr's world. I have to be conscious to accept, so even if he COULD knock me out, in Kieperr's world he must not, or he'll lose his powers.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oh, no, Rystil, I am immune to non-lethal damage. Pale Master 10. No need to worry about Spellthieves, I have an ARMY of followers, including a Lich Necromancer and a Cleric/Master of Shrouds who can take care of lame d6 HD bad thieves.

Please. The Paladin is woefully outclassed to begin with. But even more fun for him to have to accept my surrender and stop fighting every single time.

Also, even better, he MUST offer me mercy, or he LOSES his powers, in Kieperr's world. I have to be conscious to accept, so even if he COULD knock me out, in Kieperr's world he must not, or he'll lose his powers.

Ah, right. Pale Master 10. Since that PrC basically transforms you into one of the undead, that would qualify as Okay to Always Kill in my campaign even for an Exalted character (I don't apply this to normal LG characters or paladins as long as they don't murder surrendering nonevil characters, but I do apply it to Exalted characters because they got special powers in exchange) just like Demons and Undead.

 

[Rystil Arden]

So you are saying that not all good characters want to be as good as they can be? That is what an exalted character is, a character that is devoted to the highest ideals of good. Sounds like a paladin to me. In fact, the only requirement to become an exalted character is to be good. Simply by having a good alignment (and DM's permission) allows you to take Exalted feats. The BoED is a book for good characters, all good characters. There are spells, PrCs, and magic items that require you to have exalted feats but the tennets of the bok are for all good characters. You do not have to be an exalted character to do what is good, you simply have to be a good character.

There is a big difference between Good and Exalted characters. Good characters act to help others rather than for selfish reasons. Exalted characters never perform even a single evil act, even a questionably evil act, ever. Asking a normal good character to live up to that standard is ridiculous. The Neutral Good character who casts an [Evil] spell to save thousands of lives does not lose his status as Good (but an Exalted character would lose Exalted status)

 

[Seeten]

Thats not what Kieperr's Guide to Paladins says, Rystil, so even though it'd be ok in your campaigns, in his, I could go on abusing his Paladins for ever.

 

[Seeten]

Ah, right. Pale Master 10. Since that PrC basically transforms you into one of the undead, that would qualify as Okay to Always Kill in my campaign even for an Exalted character (I don't apply this to normal LG characters or paladins as long as they don't murder surrendering nonevil characters, but I do apply it to Exalted characters because they got special powers in exchange) just like Demons and Undead.

Remember also that A) You are not undead, and cannot be turned, and B) Arent even necessarily evil and remember also C)

End of paragraph 1: "In a world full of enemies who show no respect for life whatsoever, it can be extremely tempting to treat foes as they have treated others, to exact revenge for slain comrades and innocents, to offer no quarter and become merciless."

Beginning of paragraph 2: "A good character must not succomb to this trap. Good characters must offer mercy and accept surrender no matter how many times villains might betray that kindness or escape from captivity to continue their evil deeds."

So as you can see, in his game, my reign of terror may go on, unchallenged, for millenia.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Remember also that A) You are not undead, and cannot be turned, and B) Arent even necessarily evil and remember also C)

So as you can see, in his game, my reign of terror may go on, unchallenged, for millenia.

I guess that works in his game then It's silly to apply that to any but Exalted characters though. As for the Pale Master, she took 10 levels in a trasnformational PrC to suffuse herself in negative energy. She may not be turnable like an undead, but she isn't philosophical or ideological distinct from the undead (but maybe she is in Kieperr's game).

I guess the bottom line is this: Those rules for Exalted characters are a ridiculous expectation for most characters. They aren't even necessarily agreed upon as being the most Good thing to do by anyone except the writers of that book and a few others (is it really Exalted to allow the demon lords to turn your entire world into a living Abyss because you refuse to use the only spell that will stop this because it has an [Evil] descriptor? The book says yes, it is.)

 

[Seeten]

I agree with you. In Kieperr's world, Evil will always win, because good is dumb.

The Pale Master also has Tomb-Tainted Soul, Arcane Disciple: Destruction, Necromantic Presence, and Necromantic Might, and more!

Also, BoED is not only ridiculous in its assertions, its also unbalanced, giving out ridiculous benefits for rp restrictions, etc. Paladins, if done in 4th Ed, need to lose the code of conduct completely. They arent better than a fighter in the first place.