Paladin: Tricked Into Killing the Wrong Target

[Kahuna Burger]

No, because you're over-exaggerating. Using your best judgment with what you're presented is not being reckless, in this or ANY world. Really, who can forsee the possibility of someone PRETENDING to be attacking you with spells?

On the other hand, you don't think that it's at all unreasonable to make a Paladin investigate every possibility, no matter how minute, while he's engaged in combat? Just ignore all the deadly spells being lobbed your way. You first gotta investigate if the guy who's apparently throwing the spells is actually throwing them, if he's under a magical compulsion, if he's blackmailed, if he's got a split personality and the evil one's in the drivers seat, etc. When your life is in IMMEDIATE danger, you're under no obligation to do anything else aside from defending it. And if someone's there PRETENDING to be putting your life in danger, well, then he's just a damned idiot.

guess we're both over-exagerating, huh?

You are missing the possibility that a paladin could take reasonable percautions, still make a mistake still have to atone for that mistake but have that atonement be a mostly painless roleplaying hook rather than a screwing of the character. At the risk of inciting the wrath of the mod, compare this to a mistaken shooting by the police. You could be completely reckless and never get in trouble no matter how many people you shot because they twitched funny, you could second guess yourself so much you never draw your gun, or you could exercise reasonable caution, still make a mistake because someone doesn't speak the language or is out to suicide by cop or whatever, and you will be taken off the street for a bit and get some mandatory counseling, and not have your life destroyed.

You are accusing people of the second when they are talking about the third. Perhaps people are accusing you of the 1st when you mean a 4th possibility (of reasonable caution because you are a good guy but no consequences for mistakes?).

 

[painandgreed]

If they did, then they wouldn't have a single Paladin worth a damn. What they'd have, instead, would be a horde of hand-wringing ninnies who're so preoccupied with examining every potential minutiae of a situation that they never actually do a damn thing.

Well, they wouldn't be hand-wringing ninnies if they simply took responsiblity for their own actions.

 

[DonTadow]

I don't expect my paladins to turn CSI/Law and Order and thoroughly investigate every single decision they make. Think of how painstaking that would be.

Paladin Contemplation:
"I know I saw him kill someone. But I could be under an illusion spell. Then again, he could be charmed. Then again we both could be dominated. I better make sure. I will question everyone involved. But then again they could all be compelled. I better question every family member and friend. Better take hair and nail samples while I am at it. I better grab old Ollie the Wizard so he can perform lie detectors on everyone. Wait, he could be under a spell too. I better grab Hethro the Cleric, Ollie the Wizard and Solar the Sorceror.ect

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I don't expect my paladins to turn CSI/Law and Order and thoroughly investigate every single decision they make. Think of how painstaking that would be.

Paladin Contemplation:
"I know I saw him kill someone. But I could be under an illusion spell. Then again, he could be charmed. Then again we both could be dominated. I better make sure. I will question everyone involved. But then again they could all be compelled. I better question every family member and friend. Better take hair and nail samples while I am at it. I better grab old Ollie the Wizard so he can perform lie detectors on everyone. Wait, he could be under a spell too. I better grab Hethro the Cleric, Ollie the Wizard and Solar the Sorceror.ect

is there a strawman competition and no one invited me? I could be good at this, you know. Now I lost my chance at the medal cause I didn't know we were playing....

 

[I'm A Banana]

On the other hand, you don't think that it's at all unreasonable to make a Paladin investigate every possibility, no matter how minute, while he's engaged in combat?

Any paladin should EXPECT to lose his powers at some point.

It's not if, it's when. When the forces of evil and wickedness are arrayed against you specifically, it is nearly impossible to not have to atone for going overboard. Paladins are perfection, and if they fall short of that perfection, they should be FORCED (not just persuaded) to atone for it. Because the Paladin's path isn't for the expedient, easy and "well, you did your best!". It's for the wise and true. It's for those who have the forethought to second-guess their second-guesses. It's for those who know the value of divination and true seeing. It's for those who know to use their detect evil on the guy who was innocent until just a minute ago to find out if he drastically changed.

The greatest paladins never stop pursuing the path of the Paladin, no matter how often the path rejects them. They Fall...every mortal does. But they get back up again. If they didn't, they wouldn't be worthy of the name Paladin. It is an ideal and a process, not an endpoint. You are never just a Paladin. You are always trying to be a better Paladin, a better person.

Put simply, if you never expect to atone for your deeds, you aren't truly a very good person. A paladin who never lost his power should be VERY suspicious -- he's never been tested, never been tried, never had to say "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, and I humbly request your pity and forgiveness." The best and purest of us aren't universally great and pure, and everyone requires the atonement. With the Paladin, it's just more obvious and more potent on both ends.

Not to make this TOO mod-dangerous, but I think that keeps them very true to their "Catholic" origins. One of the big concepts in Catholicism is the idea that everyone sins but that God forgives it all. In D&D, I think Paladins especially should be representative of this trope: every paladin falls from grace. But they all can make it better by atoning for what they have done. This means that there are thousands of paladin/fighters or paladin/clerics out there who have fallen from the path and who just haven't been able to get back on it. It also means that Blackguards are those who fell and decided not to stop, making them more extreme perversions of forgiveness and atonement.

 

[Thia Halmades]

KM: If you really want to get into the heart of the mythos, then you have to read not only the Morte D'Arthur, where (I've mentioned this before) Arthur is punished for a crime he committed while being fooled by an illusion (Morgana) but also Spenser's Faerie Queene, and specifically, book one, the Red Cross Knight, who must choose between Una (singular perfection) and Duessa (the two-faced; beautiful, but evil). Duessa's better looking than Una, but Una's beauty is in part from her faith and purity; she isn't just skin deep.

The reason I mention this is because our hero, RCK, falls. Far. Castle of Sand, makes the wrong promises, stripped of his Paladinhood, the werkz. He then atones, and comes back stronger. That's great dramatic story telling there.

It could also make for a really HORRIBLE game play experience. I want to preface this by saying you are absolutely right. Everything you said, I agree with. Completely, no argument. Paladins are THE higher standard; they embody what makes normal men jealous because they've attained something purely through virtue, and now must hone the rest of their existence to carry that virtue higher. To shine brighter. To, ultimately, fall.

But what you and I agree makes the Paladin unique, other people will find detrimental to their gameplay. Hence, the continual 'lawful stupid' jokes, the side long glances, people who don't get that the Paladin is one of the great internalizations. You're right; I just think there's a plethora of people who don't care about making the character great.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But what you and I agree makes the Paladin unique, other people will find detrimental to their gameplay. Hence, the continual 'lawful stupid' jokes, the side long glances, people who don't get that the Paladin is one of the great internalizations. You're right; I just think there's a plethora of people who don't care about making the character great.

Well, that's a complex issue that I think has its origins in the DM vs. PC's kind of play that Gygax encouraged and the old alignment system where to become something different was punishable. In other words, in every other edition, losing your paladinhood was absolutely something a DM did to hurt a player who wasn't "playing it right." So the Paladin has all that baggage attatched to the Fall that doesn't, in 3e, have to be there.

And, from a player who doesn't "get" that kind of Catholic Knight angle, it can absolutely seem like a punishment.

IMC, I get around this in the same way the Catholic church does, in general -- atonement comes around a few times a year, and can be performed en masse (for free) for those who want it. Any Good church has these festivals for their own faith, though the reasons for the fall may be different (Kord worshippers ask forgiveness for not being strong enough, Pelor worshippers repent for praying for rain for their crops, etc.) Evil churches aren't interested in forgiveness, though they do have punishment (which you are supposed to avoid). Chaotic churches might do it rarely, and mostly forgive those who control others. Lawful churches, of course, do it for those who violate the order of the universe.

In other words, atonement spells are a functioning and public part of religion IMC. When the PC's talk to Paladins, they will meet some repentants. When they talk to the Paladin who leads them into a fight, he might discuss how he has fallen in the past. If the world doesn't view it as a failure -- indeed, they regard it as a virtue -- then the players have only their own hang-ups to blame.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Notes made, taken, internalized. Excellent points, I will include this as it goes hand in hand with precisely what I'm doing.

Thanks!

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I don't think the paladin should be penalized. The situation itself seemed set up to make him "fail". The only exception I would make is if the paladin had been willfully negligent (perhaps he should have known better or ignored obvious evidence). And, depending on the deity in question, the paladin might have simply been told to "go get him" (the BBEG) by his deity after the deception was discovered (gods usually don't like seeing their followers deceived any more than their followers do). And the god punishing the paladin would just play into the hands of evil.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Being forced to atone isn't a punishment. It is a blessing. It's not saying "suffer, for you did a bad thing!" It's saying "you did a bad thing, and you have the opportunity to make it right."