Paladins in 3.5, why?

[Daedrova]

Hypersmurf: “You removed the bolding, y'see, which did change the meaning of the sentence to an extent.
There's a difference between evil, and EVIL.
Devils. Demons. Most intelligent undead. Chromatic dragons.
In their stat block in the Monster Manual, they are "Always Evil".
Irredeemable. EVIL. …”

I apologize if I somehow changed the meaning of your statement, but there was truly no indication that what you said here was the original intent of what I replied to. As a matter of fact, you still have not specified adequately. Are you trying to say that the only creatures that will be detected as evil are those with the (evil) descriptor as in it’s subtype? If that is the case, you are mistaken.
-under the text of the detect evil spell when describing aura strength:
“Evil creature = HD/5 [creatures with an evil alignment, including dragons, or any NPC excluding below]
Undead creature = HD/2
Evil elemental = HD/2
Evil magic item or spell = Caster level/2
Evil outsider = HD [demons or devils]
Cleric of an evil deity = Level”
Again, a Paladin’s main means of discernment should not be to turn on his “radar.”
But, yes, a creature can have an evil alignment without being of the subtype (evil).
Perhaps you were trying to say that all creatures of evil alignment do show up but aren’t actually evil? If it has an evil alignment, it is quite simply EVIL. (bold text or not)
evil (equals) evil
evil (does not equal) not evil
Now, as I said before, I agree with what your general idea eludes to, that being: not necessarily all creatures that have an evil alignment are deserving of immediate death (or “slaughter” being the negative slur you like to label it).
Still, most of the evil creatures a Paladin will encounter will be either incapable of redemption, and the question will be easily answered. You made a good example of demons, but also creatures that are incapable of understanding concepts of good, such as the “undead”, “elemental”, and yes, even some magical beasts, or humanoids, etc.. I do not see how the degree of their worst sin could ever be known by a Paladin. Not all evil creatures commit the most Vile of acts. That is not for the Paladin to know. It is for the Paladin to judge from all that he does know if this evil creature should live or die, and see my above post concerning considering the “greatest good” and what sacrifices can/should be made to attempt to bring this creature to redemption. It is often quite simply too much of a sacrifice to all that is good, or too much of a risk to allow an evil creature, or some evil creatures to live. Yes, this may sometimes include groups of goblins, but again, may be situational. Is this a clan of goblins known for attacks of savagery on good communities? Are they willing, or are they capable of coming to good by redemption?
Moreover, the Paladin is to be the bringer of Justice, and the slayer of evil. While it is obviously foolish and not good to loose all compassion or mercy, and all things known should still be considered, these more passive virtues are not of foremost importance to a Paladin. The eradication of evil is.


Kevmann, I do like the general idea of your Paladin “commandments”, but some of them seem to unnecessarily overlap, or are to restrictive while being to vague. I reformed them into something, I believe, that would be more sensible and clear to follow while leaving for the necessary interpretation where needed. Let me know what you think.
Perhaps they could be called “The seven mandates to the servant of justice”

1. Order is of utmost importance. Follow the laws of any land or kingdom that you may travel through or reside in. In chaos, evil can hide from the righteous, and easily accomplishes its goals. Even seek to aid the law of the land if possible. Do not attempt to enforce your code onto authority higher than you. A breaker of a land’s law is subject to that lands authority before your own.
(highlighting the ideas of order and noting that specific law, and trials are of importance)

2. Honesty is a needed virtue. Deceit is unbecoming of goodly virtue, and only serves to sow confusion, and thus chaos whenever used. All must know that your word is to be trusted, your reason to be good, and yours are ideas to be followed.
(this leaves that in fewsituations a lie may be permissible, and will not unnecessarily compromise your integrity)

3. Purification is your goal. The servants of evil gods, denizens of the evil planes, and the undead can not be redeemed, destroy them. Do not murder a creature for whom the path of good can be shown, and redemption is the best way to cleanse it of evil. Your judgment is good, do not needlessly sacrifice or take unnecessary risks to force a creature down this path.
(underlining the main goal a paladin should have, while allowing situations for redemption)

4. Good cannot be accomplished through evil, therefore you should never use a tool or method of evil in your quest for good. In these things evil is accomplished, and you give yourself to it. Trickery and deceit are tools of cowards, and the lazy. In them your fall to corruption will be assured. Do the best, and be most honorable in all of your methods.
(this allows for situational interpretation, since there "may" be circumstances where "hiding" and "sneaking" best be done, or even maximizing possible advantage in combat using various tactics, but good judgment should show that backstabbing the unsuspecting should be unacceptable)

5. Do not befriend or bargain with an evil creature. These are deceitful beings, and will work against you and against good with what they have gained from you. While respect is to be given duly to all life, trusting in that which is twisted by evil is trust misplaced. To be associated with evil creatures will compromise your integrity, and give others a reason to question your cause and truth.
(giving reason to the "don't associate with evil", while allowing for unavoidable mistakes, such as the classic hidden alignment evil wizard)

6. Work to preserve all that should be. Protect the innocent, and the good. Give freely your effort and assistance to all who can not do for themselves. You are strong and sure, and the meek will need your defense.
(obvious)

7. You are of clear and discerning mind. Seek to avoid temptation, and any situation where your good may be compromised. Do not be swayed, and do not become the tool of evil’s desire. If you are directly used for evil, you have failed to uphold your righteous cause, have been defiled, and are therefore not useable as an agent of justice.
(showing that the horrible "dominated" situation can be avoided, but is still not permissible if fallen to, and why atonement must be attained)

edit: as always

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are you trying to say that the only creatures that will be detected as evil are those with the (evil) descriptor as in it’s subtype?

Perhaps you were trying to say that all creatures of evil alignment do show up but aren’t actually evil?

Still, most of the evil creatures a Paladin will encounter will be either incapable of redemption, and the question will be easily answered.

No, no, and I disagree.

I mean that if a Paladin were to walk around the average large town for a day detecting evil, he would over the course of the day register dozens of people as being of evil alignment. Fred the merchant who cheats his customers? Evil. Frank the bouncer at the Boar's Nest who really, really enjoys beating up patrons? Evil. Angus the gardener, who dreams up a new plot every day for how to kill his master - even though he'll never actually do it? Evil.

But it's not the Paladin's place to draw steel on the spot and start hacking, and Corinth argues that it is. There are plenty of evil creatures a paladin can encounter who are not incapable of redemption.

-Hyp.

 

[Corinth]

But it's not the Paladin's place to draw steel on the spot and start hacking, and Corinth argues that it is. There are plenty of evil creatures a paladin can encounter who are not incapable of redemption.

It is their place. Paladins are God's Judges, answerable only to Him and charged by Him to execute His Will. They're Judge Dredd clones with a halo and a mandate from God; they can--and often do--give mercy to the repentant, but their primary duty is to seek out and destroy all that is evil because that upholds His Law. (Do insert any other applicable deity for God as necessary for a given setting; the formula is universally applicable.)

 

[Psion]

It is their place. Paladins are God's Judges, answerable only to Him and charged by Him to execute His Will. They're Judge Dredd clones with a halo and a mandate from God; they can--and often do--give mercy to the repentant, but their primary duty is to seek out and destroy all that is evil because that upholds His Law. (Do insert any other applicable deity for God as necessary for a given setting; the formula is universally applicable.)

No, it's not.

Far be it from me to tell you how to handle paladins in your game, but in my game, a paladin who butchers with the slightest provocation is not going to be a paladin for long.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, it's not.

Far be it from me to tell you how to handle paladins in your game, but in my game, a paladin who butchers with the slightest provocation is not going to be a paladin for long.

To me, Corinth's description sounds like an extreme case of Lawful Neutral with orders to destroy evil, not Lawful Good at all.

-Hyp.

 

[Hejdun]

To me, Corinth's description sounds like an extreme case of Lawful Neutral with orders to destroy evil, not Lawful Good at all.

Sort of like St. Cuthbert.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sort of like St. Cuthbert.

Yeah, exactly. Fear St Cuthbert and his Lawful Neutral Paladinbots!

That's exactly it. With Corinth's Paladins, I can imagine a kid running through the Main Street of town yelling "A Paladin's coming! A Paladin's coming!", and by the time the Paladin actually reaches the gates of the town, everyone would be cowering in their storm cellars with thick bars blocking the trapdoors. "Little Billy threw a rock at a squirrel last week, and I didn't declare that cask of Elvish Wine to the tax inspector... will he hack us into pieces?"

That's an appropriate reaction to Judge Dredd, perhaps, but people should be glad to see Paladins. They're champions of Good, but Corinth's view makes them sinister Thought Police.

-Hyp.

 

[Corinth]

No, it's not.

Yes, it is. Destroying evil is good. A paladin that does what he's there to do can't go wrong.

Far be it from me to tell you how to handle paladins in your game, but in my game, a paladin who butchers with the slightest provocation is not going to be a paladin for long.

Tough; that's what paladins are: divinely-invested crusading warriors of righteousness charged by their patron gods to smite evil in all its forms. If the evil ones repent, that's all well and good; otherwise they die at the paladin's hands. Evil beings fear paladins; good and neutral ones don't. Good and neutral beings gladly support paladins in rooting out the evils in their midst for that makes the community a better, safer place.

There's no room for waffling here; the only problem is if magic is somehow used to produce a false positive for detect evil, and that's it. As that is (a) not a common occurance and (b) indicative of the presence of an evil sufficiently powerful to be a threat to a community, such a tactic would do little more than tip off a paladin to such an evil being's presence. Then it's down to which agent of the cosmic forces of good and evil is stronger, and that is another issue entirely.

Fortunately for most, alignment in D&D is based--for those possessed of free will--upon a character's overall pattern of behavior. One evil act won't necessarily push a character over into being of evil alignment; that act has to be consistent with a pattern of evil behavior, which means that it takes time to shift to (or from) an evil alignment (barring magic).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, it is. Destroying evil is good.

Hmm. So a demonic general in the Blood War (evil subtype, "Always Chaotic Evil" alignment) who devotes its entire existence to wiping out Devils (evil subtype, "Always Lawful Evil" alignment) is actually entirely devoted to a Good act? Shouldn't his alignment, therefore, become Chaotic Good, since his overall pattern of behaviour (destroying Devils) is of a Good nature?

-Hyp.

 

[Corinth]

Hmm. So a demonic general in the Blood War (evil subtype, "Always Chaotic Evil" alignment) who devotes its entire existence to wiping out Devils (evil subtype, "Always Lawful Evil" alignment) is actually entirely devoted to a Good act? Shouldn't his alignment, therefore, become Chaotic Good, since his overall pattern of behaviour (destroying Devils) is of a Good nature?

No, because he's Always Chaotic Evil.