Paladins in Sunless Citadel (UPDATE)

[WizarDru]

A world in which Winston Churchill is the norm, rather than Neville Chamberlain?

Conversely, one could just as easily see a world where the Cultural Revolution is the norm, rather than the American Revoution.

 

[S'mon]

A world in which Winston Churchill is the norm, rather than Neville Chamberlain?

Hm, I don't recall Churchill advocating that we bomb Germany in 1933.

 

[S'mon]

IMC good and evil often get along, as much as law and chaos, say. In the real world good and evil countries are often allied, for pragmatic reasons (Britain & USSR in WW2) or even ideological ones (USA & various south American dictatorships). OK, you can argue Britain in 1942 or USA in 1980 weren't 'good', but the point stands. This holds for individuals as much as for nations.
Typically in my experience, a good-evil alliance results in both parties being influenced by the other and both becoming more neutral, but a stronger party may dominate a weaker - eg a charismatic Paladin may well convert a tribe of goblins to good, or a Blackguard may convert a weak-willed cleric of Pelor to evil.

Edit: changed date - Britain in 1940 didn't have any allies worth mentioning, and the USSR was of course allied with Nazi Germany.

 

[Green Knight]

Hm, I don't recall Churchill advocating that we bomb Germany in 1933.

http://www.historychannel.com/speeches/archive/speech_50.html

In the early 1930s, from his lonely seat on a House of Commons backbench, he issued unheeded warnings of the threat of Nazi aggression.

 

[S'mon]

Just to clarify - of course Churchill was an early advocate of rearmament _to deter Nazi aggression_ - he didn't advocate a preemptive attack on Germany!

 

[Arravis]

Additionally there was VERY clear evidence of the acts of germany, not just a "they feel evil" sort of thing. It sounds like LuYangShih thinks of paladins as running the nightmare world of Orwell's 1984. I think any god that advocates those sorts of actions isn't a "good" god at all. Perhaps 9 parts lawful 1 part good, under the best light... but in my opinion it's clearly evil.

 

[Trainz]

Wow.

Did I do that ?

I didn't quite expect this (but, this being a thread with an alignment tangent, what WAS I expecting ?).

I think what I will do is go to the Kobold queen and tell her that I must slay the white dragon. This way, I will not be just backstabbing her. I will explain to her that the white dragon will grow up to become an evil entity, probably enslaving the kobolds and maybe killing them. If she accepts, I won't harm the kobolds. If she refuses (more than likely), I will draw my sword, sigh, and say "you leave me no choice"...

... of course, since the DM has decided to make Meepo neutral, even if he attacks me, I will strike him on the head with the flat of my blade, to bring him with me, and to propose to him another life... as my... *gulp*... squire.

 

[S'mon]

Additionally there was VERY clear evidence of the acts of germany, not just a "they feel evil" sort of thing. It sounds like LuYangShih thinks of paladins as running the nightmare world of Orwell's 1984. I think any god that advocates does sorts of actions isn't a "good" god at all. Perhaps 9 parts lawful 1 part good, under the best light... but in my opinion it's clearly evil.

I don't think there's anything in the PHB that justifies killing creatures just because they detect as evil. 3e really caused problems by conflating evil in the weak, 'mere alignment' sense with Evil in the 1e/2e sense of the Detect Evil spell, which clearly only detected truly Evil entities like demons, undead and evil high priests of evil gods, not Walt the Beer-Watering Bartender.

As a guide to a Paladin's actions, the sane approach is the consequentialist one - what evil is done if I slay these kobolds (death of a bunch of sentient creatures) vs what evil may be done if I don't. If the kobolds are in the habit of raiding the villagers, then sure, kill them. If gaining a white dragon may make them a greater threat, then kill the dragon, or otherwise prevent it falling into their hands. But killing intelligent creatures just because they're malevolent is not a good act IMO, in the contemporary understanding of 'good'. If you're using a different understanding of 'good' for your campaign (and I'm trying hard not to use the Na-word here), naturally YMMV.

 

[LuYangShih]

What exactly do you view Detect Evil as, anyway? To me, it is a divinely granted gift from the Paladins deity that allows him to peer into ones very soul. Given that, if a creature detects as Evil, I would say the Paladin has every right, by the book, to slay them, especially if they pose a threat to nearby Oakhurst. If you run it differently, fine, but by the book I am correct.

Oh, and you seem to be missing Green Knights point. The Nazi party was viewed as acceptable by most because they had not yet taken any aggressive or overtly evil actions towards other nations. Just as the Kobolds in this scenario have yet to do the same. The Paladin takes steps to make sure such groups never reach the levels of power neccessary to carry out their evil upon others, and eliminates them if he has the chance.

 

[Green Knight]

Additionally there was VERY clear evidence of the acts of germany, not just a "they feel evil" sort of thing.

If you're gonna argue a point then at least stay intellectually honest. If someone detects as evil, are they or are they not evil? They don't "feel evil". They ARE evil. No If's, And's, or But's about it. That's a lot more incontrovertible than whatever evidence one may come up with of what someone may or may not do. You know through Detect Evil that they HAVE done evil in the past, and that they haven't changed their ways. And as far as I know, while there are ways of NOT detecting as evil if you are, there aren't ways of detecting as evil if you're not. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but I have yet to see a method by which someone who's not evil can register as evil. In which case, Detect Evil is pretty strong evidence of the The Bad Guy (TM) is.

It sounds like LuYangShih thinks of paladins as running the nightmare world of Orwell's 1984. I think any god that advocates those sorts of actions isn't a "good" god at all. Perhaps 9 parts lawful 1 part good, under the best light... but in my opinion it's clearly evil.

The whole thing frustrates me to no end. I argued long and hard on the WoTC boards for the damned Paladin's Code to be clarified and made concise, as well as for Detect Evil to be cleared up, but nope. The only alteration was changing "Etc." to "and so forth". Arrgh! This is something upon which the Paladin's class abilities depend upon. You'd think they could've been a little bit more specific. Hopefully the Book of Hallowed Might will do something about it, but I doubt it.

Edit: This, by the way, is why I refuse to play Paladins in RPGA games. This thread more than illustrates the frustrating aspects of the Paladin class, because in RPGA games you're playing under a different DM every other game. And each DM has a different definition of what's a violation of the Paladin's Code and what isn't (Which is a result of a serious lack of clarity in the Code, itself), which means that doing something which is acceptable in one game, can lead to you losing your Paladin status in the next game. Especially annoying, since Paladin is my favorite class. So unless I want to walk on eggshells in every game, I gotta play something else.