Paladins mark "fix" a plazebo?

[Lacyon]

If you assume that strikers have adequate defensive abilities that defenders are unneeded, then yes, a paladin striker would be unoptimal...

No. There is no need for you to mischaracterize my statements.

I merely need to assume that the ability to re-establish range and the ability to continue dealing on-par damage even while compromised can be balanced against the fact that being compromised is less bad for the paladin.

In other words, the paladin can function as a striker some of the time, but when he's pressed he has to fall back on defender traits. Likewise, some of the strikers (notably the Rogue in at least one playtest report) are able to fill in the defender role for a few rounds on occasion, but not all the time.

The roles aren't meant to be straitjackets.

 

[Derren]

So, to make sure I am up-to-date on the conversation, the two (presumably) strong heavily armored guys take a turn to block the advance of a critter and uses a per-encounter ability in the process (I think I read somewhere above that the paladin ability was per-encounter - I could be wrong on that).

No, the fighter does what he is supposed to do, just without mark which he can use on a different enemy, while the paladin uses his at will mark and ranged basic attacks to deal more damage to a monster than what a real striker can do with encounter or even daily abilities.

 

[Lacyon]

No, the fighter does what he is supposed to do, just without mark which he can use on a different enemy, while the paladin uses his at will mark and ranged basic attacks to deal more damage to a monster than what a real striker can do with encounter or even daily abilities.

I'd love to see that claim backed up.

 

[Derren]

I'd love to see that claim backed up.

From WotC boards

Average damage from a 3[W] daily power using a longsword and shield, and 18 strength = 20.5

Assume he can use this daily power at will, and will hit the Solo monster 50% of the time.

His average rate of damage is 10 points per round.

Assuming he'll hit 50% of the time with a longbow for 9.5 damage his average damage rate is 12 points per round combined with his challenge.

Conclusion: A dex based Paladin who marks and then engages at range deals more damage than a Paladin with Fighter daily powers at will. His DPR is significantly higher than any striker.

What is important to factor in here is that the damage is automatic, thus against a high AC target it is significantly more powerful than it might appear compared to powers that require a successful attack roll to hit.

Against a target that can only be struck on a 19 or 20 it may very well out damage the entire party once it hits.

 

[Kishin]

I'd love to see that claim backed up.

You won't ever, since its a patently ludicrous claim. Paladin has no way we'e seen to facilitate dealing ranged damage, and the mark is what, 1d8 (at the level we've seen?) No way you're going to outstrip Striker dailies that way.

 

[Kraydak]

No. There is no need for you to mischaracterize my statements.

I merely need to assume that the ability to re-establish range and the ability to continue dealing on-par damage even while compromised can be balanced against the fact that being compromised is less bad for the paladin.

You can't reestablish range without someone else locking down the enemy, unless the enemy was never able to engage in the first place. If the enemy is unable to engage, you don't need a defender.

In other words, the paladin can function as a striker some of the time, but when he's pressed he has to fall back on defender traits. Likewise, some of the strikers (notably the Rogue in at least one playtest report) are able to fill in the defender role for a few rounds on occasion, but not all the time.

The roles aren't meant to be straitjackets.

Striker: defender damage at best (no SA, other problems), crap tanking if pressed, striker damage if not pressed.
Paladin-Striker: full defender damage, full defender tanking if pressed, striker damage if not pressed.

Indeed, I would certainly agree that the roles aren't straightjackets.

 

[ZetaStriker]

I really don't see what the confusion over Divine Challenge is all about. The ranged Paladin is a viable build(albeit one that is crippled without multiclassing), but falls short for several reasons. I'll repost from the 'Is the Paladin a Striker?' thread.

All these comments seem to assume several things I doubt any competent DM(or even most incompetent ones...) will let happen.

Everything said assumes there is only one monster ever attacking anyone.
It assumes that said monster has no ranged or special movement abilities. Basically, you're either fighting a single minion, normal, or elite monster, as all solos will have something they can do, if only for a round or so.
It assumes that Divine Challenge will do damage every turn, when chances are, a monster would risk a Fighter missing on his attack of opportunity rather than taking the automatic damage.

And even if anyone didn't assume that there was only one monster:

That the enemy party doesn't have any controllers or soldiers with abilities to prevent this.

I seriously doubt, in any situation, in any DM's game, that all three of these factors will come into play at once. Especially number one, as only Solo monsters are built to come at the party alone, and if it's a straggler from a group, it's probably screwed no matter what the Paladin is doing. Am I saying the ranged Paladin wouldn't work? No, it sounds like an awesome concept, especially if some Ranger multiclassing is thrown in. It would just still funtion as a simple Defender, rather than a Striker.

As for the Warlock's Eyebite, I can't say for sure how broken that will be, but I know that in my game, I wont allow something that actively hides you from the enemy to mark them. Having not seen the word-for-word PHB description, it may well mechanically be a consistent massive damage dealer, but it breaks away from the spirit of what Divine Challenge is, so I still wouldn't allow it.

...and don't take that to mean I wouldn't allow ranged marks. It's not what I mean. I'll just houserule that marking and hiding, or possibly even moving away from your mark by more than a single shifted square, will negate that mark.

 

[Counterspin]

It's not a d8 it's 8 damage.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Striker: defender damage at best (no SA, other problems), crap tanking if pressed, striker damage if not pressed.
Paladin-Striker: full defender damage, full defender tanking if pressed, striker damage if not pressed.

Your statistics, please.

 

[Lacyon]

From WotC boards

Ah. So if you assume that hit chances remain 50% even when using a weapon you aren't proficient with, and that the character shifts all his points from STR to DEX so that he can use a projectile weapon instead of a thrown weapon, he might be able to out-damage another defender's daily power in the case where the monster actually takes the Divine Challenge damage.

I can't see how this backs up your statement, though.