Palladium and other fantasy RPGs...

[Sejs]

I've played Palladium in many incarnations for years now... Rifts, Palladium Fantasy, Nightbane, System Shock, etc.

Wait.. System Shock? As in the whole Shodan, TriOptimum Corportation type System Shock?


There's a game of that?

 

[Tsyr]

Wait.. System Shock? As in the whole Shodan, TriOptimum Corportation type System Shock?


There's a game of that?

*laughs*

As cool as that would be, no. I screwed up the name. System Failure.

 

[Sejs]

Curses! Foiled again!

 

[Shadowlord]

Welcome to the board Kevin. It must be you since I have NEVER among the hundreds of gamers of various types I have talked to ever met someone who had this stance about any Palladium game.

No I'm not Kevin, I'm Matt. Why are you so surprised by my stance?

 

[Shadowlord]

The rules are the best part of the game. They're super simple, fast as hell, though perhaps a bit unbalanced. But I've had lots of fun with it.

That's how they should be!!

What's the whole deal with "balance"?! It's still the GM that has the final word in everything that happens in a game and if something seems wrong or not logic and would raise eyebrows, the GM simply forbids it. He doesn't need books telling him how to make the game believable!

D20 does so much effort in keeping the holy balance that they often forget to fill their books with interesting bits that really matter in an RPG. And that's not rules.
Even as balanced as d20 may be, it's not. I never saw so many half-dragon/half-celestial/half-X monk/sorcerer/prestige class1/prestige class 2 characters before d20! Now you call THAT believable?? Just because the rules are "balanced" doesn't mean the game is "balanced" or that the game will be good. Rules always had to HELP you run the game, not restrcit it! I think many forgot about that.

Maybe I'm asking this on the wrong site, maybe you're all blinded by this d20 and D&D. I just wanted a roleplaying game to have fun with friends, not a munchkins rules nightmare who know all stats by heart but never thought how their character might have believably become a half-dragon/half-celestial/half-X monk/sorcerer/prestige class1/prestige class 2 in the first place

 

[Iron_Chef]

Back in the 80s, I thought the Palladium FRPG was way better than D&D 1e, but I ditched it forever when D&D 2e came out. For me, 2e corrected most of the problems I had with D&D at the time.

CONS:
Palladium's rules are clunky and outdated, and fall apart completely when the concept of MDC (mega damage for giant robots and stuff) come into play. Palladium is a DM's nightmare. It takes forever to generate NPCs, there are no average ones, monster selection is a joke in the core rules, and the setting asks more questions than it answers (at least in the core rules). I think most of their settings suck, like RIFTS, which is just "everything but the kitchen sink" to me with no thought other than "let's appeal to everybody and cash in!" YMMV.

PROS:
The setting expansion books are quite good depending on your tastes. My favorite, Book 2: Old Ones (named for the super-lame adventure that pits you against a Cthulhu-like Great Old One rip-off and its cult), has hundreds of fully mapped towns (comprising an entire human kingdom) complete with pretty much every building numbered and described with key NPCs. This book has been invaluable to us in the past, and I still own a copy and use it with 3e. Why TSR/WoTC never made a book like this, I'll never know, especially for FR. It doesn't make any sense. Ah, well.

 

[Tsyr]

What's the whole deal with "balance"?! It's still the GM that has the final word in everything that happens in a game and if something seems wrong or not logic and would raise eyebrows, the GM simply forbids it. He doesn't need books telling him how to make the game believable!

It's not a question of believable. It's just pure balance. As in, there isn't any, and was never an attempt to make anything balanced. Wizards vrs Warriors, for example. Classes are unbalanced to the point that trying to have anything other than a party of all one or two classes is going to result in some people being of a vastly different power level.

D20 does so much effort in keeping the holy balance that they often forget to fill their books with interesting bits that really matter in an RPG. And that's not rules.

Rules do matter, in that bad rules suck the fun out of playing the game. Witness, Palladium.

Even as balanced as d20 may be, it's not. I never saw so many half-dragon/half-celestial/half-X monk/sorcerer/prestige class1/prestige class 2 characters before d20!

Because it wasn't possible?

Now you call THAT believable?? Just because the rules are "balanced" doesn't mean the game is "balanced" or that the game will be good. Rules always had to HELP you run the game, not restrcit it! I think many forgot about that.

believable != balanced, darnit. In fact, they usualy are quite different. In fantasy novels, a lot of magic users are good fighters in addition to being powerful magi. That's 'believable', sure, but it's not balanced, and doesn't make for good gameplay, unless everyone is a wizard, which is silly and much less believable than simply toning down the power of a wizard a bit.

Maybe I'm asking this on the wrong site, maybe you're all blinded by this d20 and D&D.

Well, you did come to the "DnD and D20 news site". Why not go over and post on the Palladium Books forum? I'm sure you will get a much more fair and honest view of the system over there . Or go try on rpg.net... They have no love for D20 over there.

What did you expect from calling Palladium a "superior system" to DnD on a DnD site?

I mean, honestly... You start out curious... When people tell you it sucks, you get mad and defensive, saying that the rules don't matter, and you have heard it's a superior system... No you are downright vehemenent that we aren't supporting your preconcieved notion of what the system is like. I mean, I'm not going to call it here, but... If it walks like a duck and quaks like a duck...

I just wanted a roleplaying game to have fun with friends, not a munchkins rules nightmare who know all stats by heart but never thought how their character might have believably become a half-dragon/half-celestial/half-X monk/sorcerer/prestige class1/prestige class 2 in the first place

And the ironic thing is, Palladium is almost universialy decried as the munchkin playground. But you don't listen to us, so of coure it is a rich, fun filled, "wits and fun and creativity" setting, or something like that, and we are all just blinded by D20.

 

[Tsyr]

And, for the record, the idea of the Palladium ruleset being "super simple and fast" is so laughable I don't even have words for it.

 

[Shadowlord]

You start out curious... When people tell you it sucks, you get mad and defensive, saying that the rules don't matter, and you have heard it's a superior system... .

Actually I didn't have any problems with people's opinions here except yours. You're the only one that comes screaming "it sucks sucks SUCKS... did I tell you it sucks?" Like I said, I already know your point. If you can't tell me more, please don't participate in this discussion.

No you are downright vehemenent that we aren't supporting your preconcieved notion of what the system is like

I asked a couple of times how the WORLD is like and what kind of books there are, I was less interested in the system.

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Shadowlord:

D20 does so much effort in keeping the holy balance that they often forget to fill their books with interesting bits that really matter in an RPG. And that's not rules.

Well, I have to agree to some degree there. Many D20 publishers (most notably WotC) seem to focus on "crunch" rather than "fluff". IMO, the fluff is the important stuff that makes the world unique and interesting. There are some great fluff companies out there though that also have solid rules- notably anything Paradigm Concepts makes (Arcanis world), Mystic Eye Games, and Green Ronin. Alternately, GW's Warhammer world is a great setting as well- and easy to mine or convert to D&D.

Originally posted by Shadowlord:

Even as balanced as d20 may be, it's not. I never saw so many half-dragon/half-celestial/half-X monk/sorcerer/prestige class1/prestige class 2 characters before d20! Now you call THAT believable?? Just because the rules are "balanced" doesn't mean the game is "balanced" or that the game will be good. Rules always had to HELP you run the game, not restrcit it! I think many forgot about that.

I feel your pain man. Many of the race/PrC combos in D20 are wonky in terms of power and believability, which is why I don't allow half-Xs (other than half-orcs) in my games. There is a much greater focus on this than there used to be- and undoubtedly some of it is muchkin. I think the temptation NOT to be a munchkin is harder in D&D now than it used to be with all the race/class/PrC combos to tempt them out of hiding. Of course, that makes it easier to identify them and get rid of them in your game.

Originally posted by Shadowlord:

Maybe I'm asking this on the wrong site, maybe you're all blinded by this d20 and D&D. I just wanted a roleplaying game to have fun with friends, not a munchkins rules nightmare who know all stats by heart but never thought how their character might have believably become a half-dragon/half-celestial/half-X monk/sorcerer/prestige class1/prestige class 2 in the first place

Ok, here is where I am going to break with you a little bit. While D20 has its balance issues and degree of munchkinism, Palladium is notorious for its munchkinism and it has run rampant in every Palladium RPG I have ever run or played. I have run and played Palladium Fantasy before, and while I think the world is ok (the best thing about it being the Wolfen Empire and the Old Ones), in every game the rules became a sticking point and are unbelievably clunky and munchkinish. There simply are BEST classes and races, and no way to ensure that some characters are not completely overwhelmed by others. This lead to hard feelings on the parts of the players in each game (RIFTS was especially bad about this) because some of them felt there was no need for them to be there since they couldn't contribute. Hell, we even switched from Palladium TO 2E because we simply couldn't stand it anymore. While a good world is important to having fun, the rules do play a part as well. If the rules don't SOMEWHAT level the playing field between all the players, you end up with uber-characters who can do everything well, and have no need for an adventuring group. And let me tell you from experience, that is no fun for anybody.

One other thing. If you want to encourage more role-playing in D&D, adopt a system of giving out XP like Palladium uses (the single best aspect of that system IMO). Before an adventure, I set up a series of minor, lesser, and major goals the PCs could attempt, and give each an XP value, equal to a % of the XP they need for that level (usually between 3%-15% of the XP needed). In this case, DON'T give XP for killing things out of the DMG. I have found this takes the focus off hack-n-slash, since PCs aren't rewarded for ganking opponents anymore.